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Old 08-06-2022, 12:03 PM   #379
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It is not a bloody Honda. Isnít that reason enough?
I have a K-swapped BRZ. I donít have a problem with Honda.
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Old 08-06-2022, 12:07 PM   #380
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Markups, for one thing. CTR will sticker at $40k and markup will be impossible to avoid. The dealers I knew to be MSRP-only have given up and I havenít found any more. Honda is doing worse than almost everyone with supply chain issues I think and the dealers are hurting.

Patience will get some diligent people GRCís at MSRP. It could easily be a $10,000 cheaper car for many. Patience will get you a 2-3 yr old used FL5 for a price equal to or grater than original MSRP.

I expect the GRC will be more satisfying to hoon but CTR will be a nicer all around fun DD. Iím struggling to justify it as a $45k car though.
Do we have a price yet on the car or just speculation. I guess we will have to see if there are markups on the GRC. If the difference was significant then than would be a factor, for sure.
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Old 08-06-2022, 12:22 PM   #381
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I'll take the GR Corolla over the CTR base off the AWD, proper hatchback design, and that bad ass little turbo 3. Otherwise, if I want a car I might actually be able to afford and or find, I'd get the CTR (sadly).
Yeah, I was wondering what is appealing about the AWD or this carís AWD system. There are more drivetrain losses because of the complexity, so less power gets put the ground. There is more weight over the same car without AWD. The CTR was faster around the Nurburgring than the R, RS and STI I believe, so AWD doesnít equal better performance on tarmac. The CTR has an extra cylinder and 400 extra ccís, so it may prove to be a better tuning platform, but I hear the GRís motor is pretty solid with only issues with head lift or something. I was curious if everyone lives in the snow or plans to take this off-road. Iíve also heard the Haldex diff can get quite hot on these cars. I donít know if that in all mods or just 30/70 because the clutch pack diff isnít locked, but is slipping constantly. Iím sure the system is great off-road, but I wonder if it is more intrusive and complicated than enjoyable.
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Old 08-06-2022, 12:56 PM   #382
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I have a K-swapped BRZ. I donít have a problem with Honda.
That is your fault.
I can stand the things.
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Old 08-06-2022, 03:12 PM   #383
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Yeah, I was wondering what is appealing about the AWD or this carís AWD system. There are more drivetrain losses because of the complexity, so less power gets put the ground. There is more weight over the same car without AWD. The CTR was faster around the Nurburgring than the R, RS and STI I believe, so AWD doesnít equal better performance on tarmac. The CTR has an extra cylinder and 400 extra ccís, so it may prove to be a better tuning platform, but I hear the GRís motor is pretty solid with only issues with head lift or something. I was curious if everyone lives in the snow or plans to take this off-road. Iíve also heard the Haldex diff can get quite hot on these cars. I donít know if that in all mods or just 30/70 because the clutch pack diff isnít locked, but is slipping constantly. Iím sure the system is great off-road, but I wonder if it is more intrusive and complicated than enjoyable.
We get a fair amount of cold, rain, and snow here in the Midwest. I've owned fwd, rwd and awd cars and for year round do everything usage, AWD hands down. The weather with a awd system is never a second thought, if anything you look forward to inclement conditions. lol If I was in the market for a hot hatch to lease, I go for the Golf R. Its faster in the real world where we have stop lights. 1 second faster in the 1/4 mile to the CTR is huge and getting near MK5 Supra levels of quickness. Ring times are kinda meaningless beyond marketing for supercars because the no one is/should be pushing a car that hard on public roads. I've never heard of or experienced an AWD system being intrusive, usually they make you look more skilled than you actually are.
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Old 08-06-2022, 05:42 PM   #384
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We get a fair amount of cold, rain, and snow here in the Midwest. I've owned fwd, rwd and awd cars and for year round do everything usage, AWD hands down. The weather with a awd system is never a second thought, if anything you look forward to inclement conditions. lol If I was in the market for a hot hatch to lease, I go for the Golf R. Its faster in the real world where we have stop lights. 1 second faster in the 1/4 mile to the CTR is huge and getting near MK5 Supra levels of quickness. Ring times are kinda meaningless beyond marketing for supercars because the no one is/should be pushing a car that hard on public roads. I've never heard of or experienced an AWD system being intrusive, usually they make you look more skilled than you actually are.
You mean with the DSG. The manual R is 0.3 seconds faster than the CTR, but traps 4mph slower, depending on whoís tests we look at. I donít really floor it off the line all too often, so launching the car isnít a feature I would find too appealing, or I would probably get a Tesla. I live in a snow free area, nor do I drive fast in the rain, so AWD isnít needed. I do like unintrusive drivetrains and light weight, so I tend to prefer the simplest setup for hitting the backroads. Iím just curious what motivates others.

When I say unintrusive, I mean something that doesnít have too many nannies or that is too hard to sort out like how some have complained about certain active diffs. AWD systems or bad LSDs can be these things that seem to activate on their own time in very unpredictable ways. I drove the Golf R, and I wasnít that impressed with the launch, but it was the manual. It didnít hook up in dry conditions all too differently.

Iíve seen a few reviews on the Yaris that made it seem a little lack luster over the 86 that I know to be sharp and playful and predictable. This is one review. Iím assuming someone would have to be really hooning the car to get it to misbehave like he says, which can be good and bad. Maybe the GRC is different. I just donít know if many people will feel the different drive mods in terms of understeer or in terms of fun like they think they will, or maybe the system may feel really planted and totally live up to the expectations. Like I said, Iím just curious what is hitting peopleís buttons about this car.

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Old 08-07-2022, 10:23 AM   #385
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You mean with the DSG. The manual R is 0.3 seconds faster than the CTR, but traps 4mph slower, depending on whoís tests we look at. I donít really floor it off the line all too often, so launching the car isnít a feature I would find too appealing, or I would probably get a Tesla. I live in a snow free area, nor do I drive fast in the rain, so AWD isnít needed. I do like unintrusive drivetrains and light weight, so I tend to prefer the simplest setup for hitting the backroads. Iím just curious what motivates others.

When I say unintrusive, I mean something that doesnít have too many nannies or that is too hard to sort out like how some have complained about certain active diffs. AWD systems or bad LSDs can be these things that seem to activate on their own time in very unpredictable ways. I drove the Golf R, and I wasnít that impressed with the launch, but it was the manual. It didnít hook up in dry conditions all too differently.

Iíve seen a few reviews on the Yaris that made it seem a little lack luster over the 86 that I know to be sharp and playful and predictable. This is one review. Iím assuming someone would have to be really hooning the car to get it to misbehave like he says, which can be good and bad. Maybe the GRC is different. I just donít know if many people will feel the different drive mods in terms of understeer or in terms of fun like they think they will, or maybe the system may feel really planted and totally live up to the expectations. Like I said, Iím just curious what is hitting peopleís buttons about this car.

The GRC was delayed a year because Akio had a issue with the weight. During the reveal in Japan they talked about some of the setbacks the car had compared to the Yaris.
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Old 08-07-2022, 11:44 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Like I said, Iím just curious what is hitting peopleís buttons about this car.
The Yaris is not a 4 door hatchback.
It's a math thing.
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Old 08-08-2022, 12:16 PM   #387
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What’s the appeal of this over a CTR again? Besides subjective opinions, is this appealing because people live in the snow or plan to go off roading?
AWD is better around a race track and (naturally) far superior in snow. For me personally, I'm considering moving to a much colder climate, thus AWD.

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I would think the GRC would be the "hooning" and more fun DD car, whereas the CTR would be a more track dominating car that can be a fun DD.
Meh, buying a FWD car to be your track car strikes me intentionally making things more difficult. The CTR, just like every other FWD car, has accelerated wear on it's front tires from overburdening them. Ditto, to a lesser degree, brakes.

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Well, the WRX is AWD, so I would ask why someone would want the STI over the standard WRX. I would ask the same for the GTI vs R too, especially versus the alternative of buying and modifying/tuning a GTI at the same price of buying a marked-up R, so totally, I would ask. There are motor differences between the GTI’s 2.0T versus the R, so I’d know that going into things. Same with the STI, but I don’t know if I think the EJ is an advantage.
I mean with a GTI all you need is a $750 ECU reflash to exceed the power of a Golf R's engine. Pretty basic and nowhere near the $10k cost difference (of an R). But, then you have to deal with too much power through 2 few tires. Great for just a DD but not so much for people that don't want to modify more of the car (to make it suitable for track use). For the WRX, the easy answer is crap brakes and a very basic AWD system.

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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Yeah, I was wondering what is appealing about the AWD or this car’s AWD system. There are more drivetrain losses because of the complexity, so less power gets put the ground. There is more weight over the same car without AWD. The CTR was faster around the Nurburgring than the R, RS and STI I believe, so AWD doesn’t equal better performance on tarmac. The CTR has an extra cylinder and 400 extra cc’s, so it may prove to be a better tuning platform, but I hear the GR’s motor is pretty solid with only issues with head lift or something. I was curious if everyone lives in the snow or plans to take this off-road. I’ve also heard the Haldex diff can get quite hot on these cars. I don’t know if that in all mods or just 30/70 because the clutch pack diff isn’t locked, but is slipping constantly. I’m sure the system is great off-road, but I wonder if it is more intrusive and complicated than enjoyable.
The 'Ring isn't the real world, or even close to representative of 95% of race tracks. The Nurburgring is a high speed track with very very few low speed turns. Low speed turns are exactly where an unbalanced FWD car will have it's flaws exposed. The appeal of an AWD hatch for me is because it's superior to FWD in almost every situation and you don't have to worry about torque steer or spinning your front tires at half throttle in 2nd gear.

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I have a K-swapped BRZ. I don’t have a problem with Honda.
Hah...I mean, a naturally aspirated K series is "old Honda". "New Honda" is low revving turbos wrapped in laughable styling powering oversized vehicles.
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Old 08-08-2022, 12:43 PM   #388
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Well, between the CTR and GRC, I'm sure the CTR is the better track car, even taking tire wear into consideration. Not the car for me tho, which is why I want the GRC, even if both were the same price.
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Old 08-08-2022, 12:53 PM   #389
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You would have to pay me, and then some for me to own a CTR. Then for me to drive it, I would require even more money plus other incentives. Because that is one ugly vehicle.

The GR Corolla checks all my boxes.

Hatchback - Check
3cyl Engine goes Brrrrrr - Check
Good Looking - Check
AWD - Not necessary but is big plus
Reliability - Check
Again, hatchback.



I will probably not be able to get one, not until they either get sold back to the dealer, or a lease gets returned, just how I got the BRZ. Not the end of the world If I can't get it in the next 2 years. Ideally, I would want to keep both the BRZ and the GRC. If I could get my hands on a GRC next year, I would absolutely have to part ways with the BRZ. I don't mind waiting.
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Old 08-08-2022, 03:59 PM   #390
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You would have to pay me, and then some for me to own a CTR. Then for me to drive it, I would require even more money plus other incentives. Because that is one ugly vehicle.

The GR Corolla checks all my boxes.

Hatchback - Check
3cyl Engine goes Brrrrrr - Check
Good Looking - Check
AWD - Not necessary but is big plus
Reliability - Check
Again, hatchback.



I will probably not be able to get one, not until they either get sold back to the dealer, or a lease gets returned, just how I got the BRZ. Not the end of the world If I can't get it in the next 2 years. Ideally, I would want to keep both the BRZ and the GRC. If I could get my hands on a GRC next year, I would absolutely have to part ways with the BRZ. I don't mind waiting.
Right on the nail for me as well
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Old 08-08-2022, 08:35 PM   #391
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AWD is better around a race track and (naturally) far superior in snow. For me personally, I'm considering moving to a much colder climate, thus AWD.
That makes sense if you are in snow, which is what I figured was the main reason for most people, but I was curious how much the appeal was the AWD.

AWD is inherently heavier, more complex and results in more drivetrain losses, so less power gets put to the ground. It can make up for it in traction, but it isn't any type of guarantee, which is why the fastest times aren't AWD cars all the time. I don't think it is even half of the fastest times over two-wheeled-drive cars. The all-time lap record at a sanctioned Global Time Attack at Road Atlanta is this FWD Civic. Just saying.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2017/08/...ztuning-civic/



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...7dH1bB/pubhtml
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...v73pJO/pubhtml
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...nxxpfv/pubhtml

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I mean with a GTI all you need is a $750 ECU reflash to exceed the power of a Golf R's engine. Pretty basic and nowhere near the $10k cost difference (of an R). But, then you have to deal with too much power through 2 few tires. Great for just a DD but not so much for people that don't want to modify more of the car (to make it suitable for track use). For the WRX, the easy answer is crap brakes and a very basic AWD system.
This is true of a WRX too, but obviously the brakes, engine, transmission, drivetrain, suspension and everything else that goes into the STI accounts for the price difference over the WRX, and in the same way, the engine in the Golf R is stronger/better than the 2.0T in the GTI, so there is better potential and reliability with the R. Most people will be fine with the GTI or WRX and never use the STI or R's AWD benefits, even when modified until heavily modified or until driven off-road aggressively.

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The 'Ring isn't the real world, or even close to representative of 95% of race tracks. The Nurburgring is a high speed track with very very few low speed turns. Low speed turns are exactly where an unbalanced FWD car will have it's flaws exposed. The appeal of an AWD hatch for me is because it's superior to FWD in almost every situation and you don't have to worry about torque steer or spinning your front tires at half throttle in 2nd gear.
It illustrates, along with other examples, that FWD cars seem to do fine against their AWD counterparts in the most extreme situations on tarmac, so it begs the question if AWD is needed for the average buyer. The fact is that many people buy AWD CUVs and SUVs and 4WD trucks, but the vast majority never need or use the systems, nor to they tow, in the case of trucks, and I was wondering if the same belief that AWD is necessary or better was in the car community. I didn't know if the AWD was the appeal or if it was the looks along with the engine like if they only added one or two features to the Corolla hatchback, what was selling people, or would they prefer the same package without the AWD for less weight, maybe even undercutting the CTR's weight, and perhaps for less money?

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Hah...I mean, a naturally aspirated K series is "old Honda". "New Honda" is low revving turbos wrapped in laughable styling powering oversized vehicles.
The GRC is a hundred pounds heavier and has a similar 7k redline with a peak torque around 3-5k, so I'm a little confused by this comment.

-------------------------------

I think this is a fair review: buy the CTR to be the sharpest and most track friendly out of the box, buy the Golf R to be the best daily and winter car, and buy the Veloster N to be the most fun and best bargain. I wonder how the GRC will compare.





I also think that Chris Harris is right when he says the GRY is a homologation special that belongs with a rare groups of cars, but I don't know if the GRC is just stealing some of that thunder without really living up in the same way. Will the GRC be overpriced compared to the competition without delivering on expectations. I don't know. I think it is cool, and I am glad Toyota is making it, and I think most owners will be happy with their purchase over alternatives, but I'm wondering if the price, power and weight penalty of the AWD system will be fully realized by the owners to do more than beat minivans and CUVs off the line.

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Old 08-08-2022, 09:14 PM   #392
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VW's AWD is FWD until traction is needed, right? The GRC is permanent AWD and can be really biased towards the rear, iirc.

Compared to the competitors, I'm assuming the GRC will slot in the middle.

I think it's the best option for those like me who want a smaller car that could be fun to drive, but with best use of interior/cargo space. I'll never track the car (maybe do the HPDE that is supposedly included with it), but I don't need the best track times. I've had two Yarii in the past, one being a 3-door, and really wanted the GRY, but since that was never intended to be sold here, the GRC is the next best thing for me.
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