Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

DUDE! I am not saying anything about people wanting lighter cars. I was simply countering statements that heavier cars are horrible. They are not. There are benefits and drawbacks to both.
The sales numbers statement was just to show that many people buy these heavier cars. They do. And they love them. And they track them. And they don't care about weight.

Another absolute which I can assure you isn't the case. I also never said heavy cars are horrible. I just prefer a lighter one as many do.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

BRZ also had a 13.2 gallon tank (50 liters) and that might have needed more fuel to get through the day, but it was supercharged so that changes things a bit.

And the fuel starvation bit. hahaha

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

I am not randomly throwing around numbers. There is a great thread on the topic here:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130428

There are some detailed breakdowns on consumables for several cars in that thread. Not simple off the top of people's heads breakdowns but very well thought through details after lots of events. The bottom line is the C7 GrandSport doesn't have expensive consumables because it is lightweight. It's simple physics.

I'm a firm believer in the slippery slope. If we keep ignoring the mass of sports cars they will keep climbing. We will all be driving Teslas because, oooh they are so fast. Well they are slow as balls on a road course.

You continue to ignore my point.
Many, many, many people track the heavier cars and don't care one little bit how much the consumables cost. They just don't care. You care, Wolf cares, most of the people on this forum care but the people driving those cars do not. It does not make them wrong.
We are not talking about ignoring the mass of cars as the very existence of the 86 shows that some people are still listening. Will we see the days of many different models of cheap, light, sports car return? No, they are gone but that does not mean that nobody will ever make one or two models again. They just won't be as light and if they are they won't be as cheap. It is simple economics that not enough people buy them. Even those that are worried will save a few bucks and buy a used one. As I have said several times here people that are whining about the demise of the light weight car need to put their money where their mouth is and go buy them. Not used since the company makes zero money that way. Buy new ones and show them there is a market or STFU and stop complaining they are disappearing.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Another absolute which I can assure you isn't the case. I also never said heavy cars are horrible. I just prefer a lighter one as many do.

Jesus it isn't always about you! You jumped into a conversation that was indeed started with the statement that heavy cars are horrible.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by ermax

17hp? It gained 26hp and only gained 7lbs. I’d say that’s a significant update given the weight of the car. I suspect the weight gain isn’t a result of added power but features added.

@Tcoat This above

27 HP is a significant update, sad that it gained 7 lbs but in the grand scheme of things, gaining 27HP for 7 lbs increase in weight is not bad at all. And it's still an affordable sports car to boot.

I think if the FT86 was upgraded in the same manner that the ND MX-5 is, it would be a very very sweet ride. Not that it isn't already, but I will admit the Mazda outshines it right now and I suspect purely due to Mazda keeping up with the times while the FT86 is being lazy in updates.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ermax

I am not randomly throwing around numbers. There is a great thread on the topic here:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130428

There are some detailed breakdowns on consumables for several cars in that thread. Not simple off the top of people's heads breakdowns but very well thought through details after lots of events. The bottom line is the C7 GrandSport doesn't have expensive consumables because it is lightweight. It's simple physics.

I'm a firm believer in the slippery slope. If we keep ignoring the mass of sports cars they will keep climbing. We will all be driving Teslas because, oooh they are so fast. Well they are slow as balls on a road course.

So you suspect my numbers are massively off? Or maybe he just buys parts over the parts counter instead of online?

Who knows, but my number are going to be accurate within 5%. Those prices are real prices that you can find as well.

There are some things he added that I didn't, because it's the same for any car. IE Diff flush (you can add $30 bucks if you want and divide that by 8 track days), trans flush - eventually will do that, about at the hours point, oil changes, seriously?

Brake fluid at $300?? for 9 days? I run Castrol SRF in everything, I change it yearly - maybe. $70 a year there. His shock numbers are high (by almost $200 per shock). His rotor numbers are high (not saying he didn't pay that, but paying more than one has to doesn't make it more expensive for everyone). His real rotor numbers are the same as mine of the fronts (rock auto, $328 a piece minus the 5% code + shipping) his rears cost more than mine but he's counting half so that's $250 off his estimate easily. Oh and he never did that trans flush, so that's another $200.

He's probably running different tires than I am and that's a big part. I could run R7s on a BRZ and guess what? My consumables won't look awesome on the BRZ...

Now obviously every car will be different, but just because it's heavier doesn't mean you are going to see the consumable rates that he saw with his grand sport.

Hell take gas, WolfpackS2000 runs through 1 tank a day. In none of his cars would I use just 1 tank a day. Braking habits determine brake part life, overdriving the front tires determines tire budgets. I could go on.

My numbers are real and again, my car is HEAVIER.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

@Tcoat This above

27 HP is a significant update, sad that it gained 7 lbs but in the grand scheme of things, gaining 27HP for 7 lbs increase in weight is not bad at all. And it's still an affordable sports car to boot.

I think if the FT86 was upgraded in the same manner that the ND MX-5 is, it would be a very very sweet ride. Not that it isn't already, but I will admit the Mazda outshines it right now and I suspect purely due to Mazda keeping up with the times while the FT86 is being lazy in updates.

Keep up with the times? Have you ever looked at the history of the Miata? It has fallen behind the times more than many car on the market. It goes almost unchanged for many years and then gets an upgrade. You are focused on one change that many said was decades late. The Twins have been around for all of 6 years. Lets wait and see what the Twins update is at the 30 year mark before we start saying that they have been upgraded in the same manner. Be interesting to know (and we never will) just how much impact the Twins had in the Mazda receiving the update it did. If they didn't exist would the Miata have just carried on with it's minor updates every 6 years or so?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You continue to ignore my point.
Many, many, many people track the heavier cars and don't care one little bit how much the consumables cost. They just don't care. You care, Wolf cares, most of the people on this forum care but the people driving those cars do not. It does not make them wrong.
We are not talking about ignoring the mass of cars as the very existence of the 86 shows that some people are still listening. Will we see the days of many different models of cheap, light, sports car return? No, they are gone but that does not mean that nobody will ever make one or two models again. They just won't be as light and if they are they won't be as cheap. It is simple economics that not enough people buy them. Even those that are worried will save a few bucks and buy a used one. As I have said several times here people that are whining about the demise of the light weight car need to put their money where their mouth is and go buy them. Not used since the company makes zero money that way. Buy new ones and show them there is a market or STFU and stop complaining they are disappearing.

I respectfully disagree that everyone with an expensive car could care less about the expense of owning said car. I work for a privately owned company capable of building a 21 million dollar building simply shaving a little profit over two years. Not a dime financed. The 3 owners are making around 30 million a year each. They all own multiple exotic cars but no joke they will spend a week trying to decide if we should buy 100 RFID cards at $20 or higher quality ones that you can print on better for $300. They agonize over expenses that even I don't think twice about. One of the owners once told me that once you spend a penny you will never see that penny again. To think rich people get rich by not caring about spending money is nievie at best. Not everyone inherits money from their daddy and blows it all without batting an eye. I do agree that there are many who don't give a damn about consumables or expenses but I suspect they ALL have a desire for a lighter car regardless of consumable cost.

I am out though, I see in your next post your moving towards personal attacks.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No doubt it is but it also isn't to a lot of people. The simple point is just because you think it costs too much does not mean it costs too much.

Tcoat,

While I do get your point here, I have to add:

There is always this "right price" for things that a large chunk of society is willing to pay. So it's not necessarily completely arbitrary.

The sad fact is as stated previously here, a lot of the people who have the purchasing means for sports cars do not actually use said sports cars as they were meant to be used. A lot of 911 GT3 RS are locked up in a garage.

We are a very small percent of buyers that are really interested in buying cars for fun and I feel we are at risk of losing this segment of cars all together.

Yes for me, definitely I had in mind that the BRZ is much lighter than say a Mustang GT350 and I always had in mind that consumables will be much cheaper if I drive the car hard. Heck I even keep this in mind when I buy a regular car. My brother bought a heavy luxury car and he is now complaining on how often he has to replace the tires.

Long story short, reducing weight lowers consumable costs which makes real driver enthusiasts happy but this might not be the market trend right now because regular consumers are not necessarily aware of this.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ermax

I respectfully disagree that everyone with an expensive car could care less about the expense of owning said car. I work for a privately owned company capable of building a 21 million dollar building simply shaving a little profit over two years. Not a dime financed. The 3 owners are making around 30 million a year each. They all own multiple exotic cars but no joke they will spend a week trying to decide if we should buy 100 RFID cards at $20 or higher quality ones that you can print on better for $300. They agonize over expenses that even I don't think twice about. One of the owners once told me that once you spend a penny you will never see that penny again. To think rich people get rich by not caring about spending money is nievie at best. Not everyone inherits money from their daddy and blows it all without batting an eye. I do agree that there are many who don't give a damn about consumables or expenses but I suspect they ALL have a desire for a lighter car regardless of consumable cost.

I am out though, I see in your next post your moving towards personal attacks.

To be fair I agree that everyone cares what items cost. However, people who track more expensive cars are OK with the cost of consumables because 1. there's not a cheaper option if they want to track car X, Y or Z and 2. they knew that going in and the cost is worth the experience.

And then there's some who just want to be the top dog and actually don't care what anything costs at all but that's a minority I'd say based on my experience.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

So you suspect my numbers are massively off? Or maybe he just buys parts over the parts counter instead of online?

Who knows, but my number are going to be accurate within 5%. Those prices are real prices that you can find as well.

There are some things he added that I didn't, because it's the same for any car. IE Diff flush (you can add $30 bucks if you want and divide that by 8 track days), trans flush - eventually will do that, about at the hours point, oil changes, seriously?

Brake fluid at $300?? for 9 days? I run Castrol SRF in everything, I change it yearly - maybe. $70 a year there. His shock numbers are high (by almost $200 per shock). His rotor numbers are high (not saying he didn't pay that, but paying more than one has to doesn't make it more expensive for everyone). His real rotor numbers are the same as mine of the fronts (rock auto, $328 a piece minus the 5% code + shipping) his rears cost more than mine but he's counting half so that's $250 off his estimate easily. Oh and he never did that trans flush, so that's another $200.

He's probably running different tires than I am and that's a big part. I could run R7s on a BRZ and guess what? My consumables won't look awesome on the BRZ...

Now obviously every car will be different, but just because it's heavier doesn't mean you are going to see the consumable rates that he saw with his grand sport.

Hell take gas, WolfpackS2000 runs through 1 tank a day. In none of his cars would I use just 1 tank a day. Braking habits determine brake part life, overdriving the front tires determines tire budgets. I could go on.

My numbers are real and again, my car is HEAVIER.

I'm not debating your numbers. I'm simply pointing out that I didn't just randomly come up with a number. I was quoting from memory (although off a little) a number I read in a very informative thread. Maybe you should post your consumable costs in that thread along with others posting their experience with other cars.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

I am out though, I see in your next post your moving towards personal attacks.

No personal attack there.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

Tcoat,

While I do get your point here, I have to add:

There is always this "right price" for things that a large chunk of society is willing to pay. So it's not necessarily completely arbitrary.

The sad fact is as stated previously here, a lot of the people who have the purchasing means for sports cars do not actually use said sports cars as they were meant to be used. A lot of 911 GT3 RS are locked up in a garage.

We are a very small percent of buyers that are really interested in buying cars for fun and I feel we are at risk of losing this segment of cars all together.

Yes for me, definitely I had in mind that the BRZ is much lighter than say a Mustang GT350 and I always had in mind that consumables will be much cheaper if I drive the car hard. Heck I even keep this in mind when I buy a regular car. My brother bought a heavy luxury car and he is now complaining on how often he has to replace the tires.

Long story short, reducing weight lowers consumable costs which makes real driver enthusiasts happy but this might not be the market trend right now because regular consumers are not necessarily aware of this.

Not disputing any of that and not really sure how my simple message of "some people can and do spend the money to track heavy cars" managed to get twisted into some justification of lighter cars.
It's like saying that some people prefer an AT and then getting subjected to massive reams of unrequired justification as to why others prefer MT.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

As I have said several times here people that are whining about the demise of the light weight car need to put their money where their mouth is and go buy them. Not used since the company makes zero money that way. Buy new ones and show them there is a market or STFU and stop complaining they are disappearing.

I think this is about the strongest and saddest statement in this thread.

Sadly the main problem is consumers don't even really buy sports cars enough to begin with and add on top of that they prioritize performance figures and luxury over things like lightweight.

There's also another factor I don't believe was ever mentioned in this thread

People tend to also buy sports cars to validate themselves in society. They take that into account. So they might be OK with say a Miata or an FT86 but don't want to get scorned for having a slow car or a "lady's car" in the case of the Miata. Also they think what will their friends say when they go for a ride with them and they floor it and their friends go: "is that it?". So do to such insecurities, they'll go buy the big fat Mustang GT. Not to bring down the Mustang, I like that car personally, but I do hate this dynamic of society where you buy a car to satisfy those around you rather than yourself.