Autumn tires options...?

[lapsio]

So I know it may sound a bit silly to talk about autumn tires but well... I got myself Michelin Cup 2 tires for daily driver and it was all fun and giggles during summer but summer is about to end and currently weather forecast for next week announces sub 10 deg C temperatures (sub 50F) and I'm no longer able to keep those tires temperature above 40 deg C (which seems to be absolute minumum for those tires to operate with any reasonable performance). Especially front tires are problematic because few clutch kicks from time to time are always able to bring rear tires temps to sufficient 40-50 C but there's not much I can do about front axis so understeer goes through the roof.

So I've been thinking - are there any more... "dedicated" options for period between winter and summer? I mean - I already do have winter tires but they kinda suck for spirited driving and performance is just nowhere near Cup 2 at decent temps. So I started to wonder if maybe someone tried something like uh... soft compound semi slicks?

I considered Extreme Tyres VR2 (or VR1) made of R5A soft compound which should be fine for operating temps between 15 to 50 deg C which should be about right for autumn weather and should work fine down to temps which already require winter tires anyways.

And I know it may sound like really dumb "problem" in the first place with easy solution - just get regular summer tires - but regular summer tires are just regular decent all-around, econo, best for nothing solution. I could just as well put on my winter tires and call it a day but I'm looking for Cup 2 level performance in colder weather, not "just works" all season tire. So... I guess soft semi slicks sound kinda like product made specifically for such scenario.

Inb4 I don't care about tread-wear and wet performance at all. I'm used to driving on borderline bald semi slicks in the rain so I'm aware how much caution it requires. I'm not gonna break lap records in the rain anyways. So I'm only interested in DRY performance (maybe very slightly damp but nowhere near wet, not to mention standing water).

[RACECAR go brrr!]

There really isn't much you can do here. You aren't going to get that level of performance out of any tire that will be acceptable in cooler temperatures. Either switch to your winter tires and change over to "casual driving mode" until spring, or pick up a third set of tires to fill the gap... but there is no magic tire that's going to get your Cup 2 levels of performance in that temperature range. If you don't want to go full winter mode, get something like a Michelin Pilot All Season 4 for the in-between period.

Also, you're lumping summer tires in with the "regular, boring, econo, jack-of-all-trades, master of none" group, but I don't think that's really fair. On public roads, the difference between something like your Cup 2 and a Pilot Sport 4S (or even a slightly lesser summer) really isn't going to be THAT different in the dry. On a track, where you can go 10/10ths, sure, but on public roads, going 10/10ths is silly, and you're acting like the difference between the Cup 2, and a normal summer tire is going to be just as big as the difference between a summer tire and a junky all-season, which just isn't the case. I think the scale you're using to compare categories is skewed.

[DarkPira7e]

You will not find good performance at those temperatures and below. It just won't happen, you'll be best set with something like a 300-400tw summer, as stickier rubber will become unpredictable and scary below 50f. I've driven 200tw tires at temperatures between 100f and 0f, anything below 50 becomes scary quickly. Below 30f forget it

[lapsio]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

You will not find good performance at those temperatures and below. It just won't happen, you'll be best set with something like a 300-400tw summer, as stickier rubber will become unpredictable and scary below 50f. I've driven 200tw tires at temperatures between 100f and 0f, anything below 50 becomes scary quickly. Below 30f forget it

Well Extreme Tyres with W3 compound are TW50 tyres with optimal operating temperatures (tire temperatures) between 0 and 30 deg C (30F to 85F) and tire temperature will always be higher than outside temps. That's mostly area where I'm looking for performance gains. While it's understandable that I won't find anything spectacular with reasonable treadwear maybe it's still possible to find something spectacular with unreasonable treadwear, something useless both in summer due to disintegrating from heat and useless in winter due to not being winter tire but excellent between 0 and 15 deg C outside. Considering it's gonna be my 3rd set of tires I wouldn't mind replacing them after like 6 months of usage I think.

They're advertised as wet rally tire / wet racing tire. I mean idk, there must be something folks use for racing at lower temps right? I mean it's not like October kicks in and all racing whatsoever ceases to exist I guess... There are races in the rain and stuff... :T Even winter tires have extreme counterparts (studded) which are apparently illegal to use on public roads but still well... they exist.

[DarkPira7e]

The issue isn't the tire so much as the road. Your tire can be as hot as it wants, cold pavement offers no adherence. Studs are far worse on pavement than straight rubber

[ZDan]

I haven't had any probs running 200tw tires on the street all the way up to when I switch over to winter tires. Likely very tire-specific though, I run tires that are designed for autoX/time trial more so than continuous lapping and have great grip from go at the track. A052s and the previous RE71R were fine for me on the street at 40F and even below that. I've driven on NT01s in cooler temps on the street in the past as well, not a big deal really.

I'll see how the RE71RS do this year, they seem to want to be much cooler for quickest lap times at the track.

Just be aware if you are getting more than usual slip angles during cornering. And keep it below 6-7/10ths!

[lapsio]

So it's been a while hasn't it?

Well of course I did exactly what I said I'm planning to do and got those ultra soft tires. I wanted to make them dry-road ready so decided to go with W5 compound instead of W3 (also because there were availability issues with W3 in my size). W5 is good for 20-40 deg C temperatures which are exactly what I was hitting when driving in colder autumn conditions. Also they are TW 80 which is... a tiny bit better. I ended up getting Extreme Tyres VR1 in W5 compound. 225/45r17 because that's the only size they're made in, that was compatible with stock BRZ (they're not made in 18" apart from hardcore widths like 245+).

"There is no magic tire that's going to get your Cup 2 levels of performance in that temperature range..."

Well... Apparently it seems there is. And that's exactly this magic I guess. So from the very first day I swapped Cup 2's with those VR1 W5 tires I felt that it is better. A lot. Especially during colder nights those tires were absolutely bonkers. It totally was nearly Cup 2 level of performance but in cold temperatures. They also performed quite well in the rain. But the main reason why I'm writing this today is because I changed to regular winter tires today. And... they're absolute garbage. Even though there's like -2 °C outside they're still garbage comparing to VR1 W5 especially on dry and damp above 0 °C. It really left me speechless just how good those soft semi slicks were in those cold conditions, during hard driving, comparing to regular winter tires.

Well why did I change them if they're so good? Apparently they cannot be stored below 0 because rubber may get damaged and manufacturer told me it's very bad idea to leave car outside on them when there's below 0 deg outside. And that's literally the only reason why I changed them and actually now I kinda regret because I feel like I could stretch definition of "below 0" just a little bit longer but oh well, too bad. Better luck next year.




Anyhow, if they're so good then why not everyone uses them? Well there's few caveats that I came across that may render this option a bit cumbersome to some people.

1. They're LOUD. I mean you know, people say semi slicks are loud, people say winter tires in summer are loud but those - they're LOUD. It's loud level where your tires are louder than engine up to 4k rpm when you're going 40 kph... And mind you, we're talking about BRZ engine up to 4k rpm - car that has almost no acoustic treatment and engine is already stupidly loud. They whine as hell and you can kinda feel how they transfer micro vibrations that are probably result of how sticky and soft they are. They're so loud that I thought they're damaged at first but after few days I just got used to fact that that's my life now.

2. They're fragile. Because they're super soft they also get damaged quite easily. It's probably not really an issue but today when I was swapping tires I could clearly see bruises in tread that were result of hard breaking.



Also TW 80 is quite extreme so I don't expect them to last more than 1 year, tops 2.

3. They're kinda wobbly. Hard slick tires typically have really strong and stiff sidewalls. Those don't really have that as much. I mean it's still good but well, it's not Cup 2 level let's just call it that way. Maybe it's a bit exaggerated by how sticky and grippy they are so when there's no tire slip - tire bending is the only thing anywhere close to slip that you can feel in car.

4. No clutch kicks :< It's just impossible to go sideways with them. Cup 2 are not all that sticky on wet so I could go sideways from time to time when it was raining without feeling like entire car is about to fall apart. Those tires just girp. The end. Always. Even in the rain. Any attempt to go sideways or initiate any form of slip resulted in EXTREME levels of wheelhop and it was just not worth it. After few attempts I just accepted the fact that my car no longer drifts.

5. They're probably quite useless above 15 deg outside. I mean I was easily getting them to 35-40 deg even in really cold temps (like 8 deg outside) and since 40 °C is their upper optimal temperature range I believe they'd simply melt during summer. Also wouldn't really grip and it doesn't make sense to use them at that point. These are cold-only tires. Maybe even more so than "normal" winter tires.

6. Well, it's 3rd set of tires to begin with because they're neither summer nor full winter compatible so there are both financial and labor implications because suddenly you have to swap tires 4 times a year instead of 2 and possibly need another set of rims if you prefer changing wheels on your own, whenever you want.

Apart from that... I can hardly think of any issues. They catch temperature quite fast, you're good after few minutes even in road conditions, even with slightly below 0°C temps outside and once they're above 20-25 deg - magic starts to happen. Of course they stand no chance against ice but honestly - on icy road those full winter tires are kinda sh*t as well, so whatever...

All in all I'm Extremely satisfied with those tires up to point I asked about VR3 W3 for next winter because I feel like those could be used even well below 0, probably even in snow due to tread pattern. 10/10 will buy again. They absolutely devastate Cup 2's in low temps performance.

[DarkPira7e]

Interesting, glad you found something that works well for you. I'd love to see video of these hooking below 0! Good find