P0171 and P117B after Edelbrock SC FIXED

[tomm.brz]

i m no shocked at all
it takes time to know the ECUs in detail and this car got a major change in tune logic since 2016 and they probably used the time to tune a older one and copypaste everything with small insufficient changes

when i get a bit of time i ll send you a correct one, i raised too much the maf scaling and now they are too negative

[Decep]

Wow, kudos to Tomm

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is not “their” tune. It’s CARB’s, and it might not be as accommodating as an OEM tune for all altitudes and weather conditions. You would want to hear from other members who have the CARB tune at altitude if they ran into any problems. With that said, I don’t think your issue is with the tune either; it is just a possibility I wouldn’t dismiss.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

CARB only approves (or disapproves) of the tune. Edelbrock's tunes are developed in-house on their engine and chassis dynos.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yes, which was why I said it is not “their” tune in quotations. I was subtly hinting (maybe too subtly) that CARB’s involvement probably jeopardizes the integrity of the tune. Compared to OEMs, I’m sure Edelbrock spends a fraction of the time on the tune, so given that limitation, it probably would have been easier to tune with a safety net in the tune for emissions.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Lots of speculation here on your end, so let me clarify.

Edelbrock is actually an OEM supplier, that develops OEM applications for some um... very fast factory supercharged cars.

CARB has zero input on the tune. They only pass/fail the tune; they do not alter it in any way, nor do they provide input, only emissions guidelines that the tune must meet. They have no involvement beyond that.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They provide OEM tunes or just parts?

Again, “” was used to insinuate that CARB is setting the standards (like saying haha that’s CARB’s tune, you know, because they have a gun to my head), which is influencing the tune. Given federal smog standards, the tune could be different. Given the process to get something CARB certified, I’m sure a developer wouldn’t go into a testing session with a tune that could be close to failing. I would imagine they would be more conservative than aggressive.

Maybe Mike has a comment. Was this patch in the tune just a bandaid for a problem that still exists, or does Edelbrock need to work on their CARB tune to accommodate altitudes a bit more?

[tomm.brz]

more than the altitude, the ONLY problem is just really the maf scaling, not appropriated in this case for his 2017 K00C car.
it was scaled too low at low voltage

i think the untouched tune could work perfectly in a pre restyling car, where the Engine load compensation is not zeroed at idle manifold pressure values, and would help with keeping engine load a bit higher and possibly not triggering a huge positive ltft to compensate

the bandaid was just rise maf scaling values around Idle voltage values

Nothing to do with CARB actually?
the atmospheric compensation is kept stock, and is kept stock in basically every tune, no one messes with that
it just contributed, in this very case, to trigger a DTC because the engine load and maf g/s values were already too low



my opinion is they should do like Cosworth
you buy a canned tune for Edelbrock? ok, you make a log and Edelbrock SHOULD provide some releases to fix some things to suit the car better

They sell ecutek so they are considered "Master tuners", they should act as such
Canned tune will always suck if you don t put some work in them to match the final car
How many people here had problems with ots tunes, despite it s always the same, even same calibratikn because they hack everything to stable euro tunes
And remember that maf scaling changes to some degrees for every single car in the world... sometimes some cars differ a bit more and here we are talking about non-oem applications.. so sometimes you get this

[Irace86.2.0]

Can they make custom tunes to individual cars with these revisions like you say when that would be modifying the CARB tune?

[tomm.brz]

why not?

a small adjustment at the maf scaling, what can happen? who notice?
at least you make the tune actually perform the way it should, you don t touch targets or anything else

if it struggles to keep stoich because someone wrote bad numbers in a couple of cells... I wouldnt think it helps with emission check

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

why not?

a small adjustment at the maf scaling, what can happen? who notice?
at least you make the tune actually perform the way it should, you don t touch targets or anything else

if it struggles to keep stoich because someone wrote bad numbers in a couple of cells... I wouldnt think it helps with emission check

I bet it comes down to the bureaucratic expense of obtaining the re-cert. If so, this just brings to light the actual cost of having to follow the letter, versus the spirit of the law.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe Mike has a comment. Was this patch in the tune just a bandaid for a problem that still exists, or does Edelbrock need to work on their CARB tune to accommodate altitudes a bit more?

I'd rather not speculate on Edelbrock specific processes. I have no involvement on 17+ tunes with them.

That said, Edelbrock typically develops calibrations on an engine dyno, not a chassis dyno. All the folks I worked with are no longer there, and I don't have a direct line in.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

why not?

a small adjustment at the maf scaling, what can happen? who notice?
at least you make the tune actually perform the way it should, you don t touch targets or anything else

if it struggles to keep stoich because someone wrote bad numbers in a couple of cells... I wouldnt think it helps with emission check

CARB would notice. Why?

Because all new cars get logged via OBD2 during the smogging process. When this data from 17+ cars eventually starts appearing, guess who will notice the change?

CARB.

California™

[snowtaipan]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

CARB would notice. Why?

Because all new cars get logged via OBD2 during the smogging process. When this data from 17+ cars eventually starts appearing, guess who will notice the change?

CARB.

California™

I agree, that would definitely pop up as an issue. Since they certify the tune, any variance in the tune would need to get re-certified. And that's not a cakewalk, certainly not something you'd do custom per car.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

why not?

a small adjustment at the maf scaling, what can happen? who notice?
at least you make the tune actually perform the way it should, you don t touch targets or anything else

if it struggles to keep stoich because someone wrote bad numbers in a couple of cells... I wouldn't think it helps with emission check

And this is one of the reasons why I said it is CARB's tune. I also said that they set the bar for the emissions, and dictated the process, which dictates the quality of the tune ultimately, but once it is finalized, it is like Edelbrock handed the tune over to CARB; no modifications can be made.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

CARB would notice. Why?

Because all new cars get logged via OBD2 during the smogging process. When this data from 17+ cars eventually starts appearing, guess who will notice the change?

CARB.

California™

Exactly, this would get back to CARB 100%, and there would be huge repercussions $$$ or worse.

[tomm.brz]

Damn
oh well.. as one who gets passed emission by hooking up the gas sensor to a hidden Fiat running methane next to my car... i'll gently remove myself from this topic :P

[snowtaipan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

And this is one of the reasons why I said it is CARB's tune. I also said that they set the bar for the emissions, and dictated the process, which dictates the quality of the tune ultimately, but once it is finalized, it is like Edelbrock handed the tune over to CARB; no modifications can be made.



Exactly, this would get back to CARB 100%, and there would be huge repercussions $$$ or worse.

Bro I see your point, I see Mike's, in the end no one likes CARB. y'all can agree on that, the rest is semantics.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

Damn
oh well.. as one who gets passed emission by hooking up the gas sensor to a hidden Fiat running methane next to my car... i'll gently remove myself from this topic :P

Originally Posted by snowtaipan

Bro I see your point, I see Mike's, in the end no one likes CARB. y'all can agree on that, the rest is semantics.

It isn't semantics at all. My point was the tune was compromised. Many people have complained about CARB tunes before, but generally the consensus is that they are conservative, detuned versions of "good", reliable tunes.

This seems to be demonstrably not the case if scaling the MAF was all that it took to fix the problem, and the tune was responsible for throwing something as serious as CELs. It would either suggest one of several things: that your car is an outlier, that canned/CARB tunes might not be reliable/trusted, or that Edelbrock needs to revisit this tune. It could be more than one of those things.