Next Gen BRZ/86!

[Takumi788]

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

Lol, so it dropped a bit over $4k to make it look like some kids backyard project... I don’t think that would help US sales

I would have bought a GT86 RC if they were available in the states. So that makes one person. lol. However, I also tried to buy my car without a warranty....(they didn't let me).....so I may be an abnormal consumer.

I think the next gen needs to keep the cost around 30k. IMHO, the twins aren't worth any more than that and they aren't supposed to be. The second they started adding luxuries like hill assist and auto-leveling headlights and all that nonsense they lost the ideal of this car. Which was cheap, lightweight, no frills fun. Like a newer version of a 90's-2000s rwd sports car.

I hope they give us a truly stripped down version of the next gen. I don't think this is the popular opinion but it is what drew me to buying a twin. I am not against having a "Premium package". Just make sure there is a cheap gt86 RC edition for all of the people that don't care about sound deadening and stereo systems.

Then again, all of those luxuries are signs of the times. I just might be the crazy one.

[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

I would have bought a GT86 RC if they were available in the states. So that makes one person. lol. However, I also tried to buy my car without a warranty....(they didn't let me).....so I may be an abnormal consumer.

I think the next gen needs to keep the cost around 30k. IMHO, the twins aren't worth any more than that and they aren't supposed to be. The second they started adding luxuries like hill assist and auto-leveling headlights and all that nonsense they lost the ideal of this car. Which was cheap, lightweight, no frills fun. Like a newer version of a 90's-2000s rwd sports car.

I hope they give us a truly stripped down version of the next gen. I don't think this is the popular opinion but it is what drew me to buying a twin. I am not against having a "Premium package". Just make sure there is a cheap gt86 RC edition for all of the people that don't care about sound deadening and stereo systems.

Then again, all of those luxuries are signs of the times. I just might be the crazy one.

The twins still have a base price well below $30k with the auto-leveling headlights and hill assist... both of which add no weight to the car and don’t take anything away from the “ideal” of this car. So here we are again with talk of a “stripped down” twin... what exactly do you think they could strip out that would make a significant difference in price and weight that wouldn’t make the car look like some kid just ripped out interior pieces in his backyard (which of course anybody is welcome to buy a base trim and do their self)?

[why?]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Smaller brakes/wheels and lesser cost seats brings the price down about $400 max. The major upgrade cost are in the exact items you want more of. In fact, power seats alone would add at least $300 to the price. Again, what you're saying makes little sense. The only way to bring the price down is to produce as many Twins as Civics or Camrys. It is the limited production runs and lack of economy of scale that raises the price of the car. And current volumes are even lower than they've been in the past as performance CUV's continue to grow.

economies of scale can lower the price, exactly. They are never ever going to sell many twins, no matter how many they produce. 2 door cars just do not sell, even camaros and mustangs sales are dropping.

The only way they can ever have any scaling with the twins is by wholesale use of impreza parts. They do a lot of that already, but they could easily do more. Whether or not they could do enough to make a huge difference is something no one outside of subaru or toyota could say.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by why?

Whether or not they could do enough to make a huge difference is something no one outside of subaru or toyota could say.

Not true... i've done many corporate ROI's on production/manufacturing lines over my career and can tell you that the things you mentioned just don't affect costs substantially. The reason for this is that you choose parts suppliers who already have economies of scale for their particular parts. Computer aided designs and robotics make the cost differences between even slightly different designs small. Again, parts suppliers already have economies of scale with modern manufacturing techniques. It is the stuff that Subaru does on its assembly lines that really make a difference. Shared platforms amortize cost differences substantially because then each line begins to have economies of scale. Given that the Twins are the only car in the Subaru line-up to have 2 wheel drive makes economies with other platforms virtually impossible. The other factor driving down costs is to have enough volume to have manufacturing plants close to the point of sale. That's why many foreign companies produce their cars here in the states.

[himbo]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

I'll throw in my 2c worth of speculation.

I have a feeling they won't be able to make the next engine retain the 7400rpm redline and remain a global vehicle. As it was, they couldn't release the updated 2017 engine in certain markets due to issues meeting emissions standards in those markets. It seems all car models started after 2015 that have a redline above 7000 RPM are either available in limited markets or are in upscale vehicles to begin with. Even Honda, previously known for making high revving NA motors switched to making low revving turbo motors. I think even the new Civic Type-R only goes up to 7000 RPM. The new ND Miata remained NA but also lowered it's redline to a benign 6500.

I think it's impossible for this car to retain it's current position without being turbo in the next generation, expecting Civic SI numbers of around 210hp with 6500 redline and possibly the FA24 will be an option for 260hp.

Not totally sure about this as governments have realized that small turbo engines don't run cleaner or save fuel in real world conditions. It's just that manufacturers have an easier time manipulating them to get better numbers. Downsizing is on its way out and rightsizing is coming in.

[Takumi788]

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

The twins still have a base price well below $30k with the auto-leveling headlights and hill assist... both of which add no weight to the car and don’t take anything away from the “ideal” of this car. So here we are again with talk of a “stripped down” twin... what exactly do you think they could strip out that would make a significant difference in price and weight that wouldn’t make the car look like some kid just ripped out interior pieces in his backyard (which of course anybody is welcome to buy a base trim and do their self)?

According to your previous post the price was dropped 4k for a bare bones GT86 RC. That is a starting price of 22k. That is a considerable amount for all of the things I (and many others) just got rid of or replaced. It also weights 132 lbs less. Like I said in my previous post, I may be the crazy one, but I would have bought an RC no questions asked.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Given that the Twins are the only cars in the Subaru line-up to have 2 wheel drive makes economies with other platforms virtually impossible.

Not necessarily true. Plenty of cars come with a RWD/AWD option. You just need a different transmission and front subframe. The tranny is already outsourced from Aisin, Subaru could easily platform share the twins with the WRX.

Nissan used the same platform for the 350Z, G35, FX. That platform supported RWD, AWD, A V6, A V8, and was eventually adapted for the current GTR.


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Not necessarily true. Plenty of cars come with a RWD/AWD option. You just need a different transmission and front subframe. The tranny is already outsourced from Aisin, Subaru could easily platform share the twins with the WRX.

Nissan used the same platform for the 350Z, G35, FX. That platform supported RWD, AWD, A V6, A V8, and was eventually adapted for the current GTR.


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yep!
Subaru has said they will make all of their vehicles on the new platform by 2021. That means everything from the Forester to the new and yet unnamed plug in EV will all use it. Platform sharing does not mean that the final cars have to be the same.
The Lancer, the Jeep Compass, Dodge Caliber and Chrysler 200 shared a platform and they are not even remotely the same set ups. In the 80s the Fox platform was used for the Mustang the LTD and the Thunderbird which again are radically different. For over a decade Chrysler built almost everything on the K platform. Something like 80 (or more?) different vehicles used it.
Same "platform" does not mean that each chassis is identical just that it uses the same basic set up and parts. Floor pans, drive setups, engines and many other aspects can be totally different.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Not necessarily true. Plenty of cars come with a RWD/AWD option. You just need a different transmission and front subframe. The tranny is already outsourced from Aisin, Subaru could easily platform share the twins with the WRX.

Nissan used the same platform for the 350Z, G35, FX. That platform supported RWD, AWD, A V6, A V8, and was eventually adapted for the current GTR.


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But you need a platform that accommodates both. Do you really see that in the current platform? In addition, all of the Nissan models you named were designed as rear wheel drive while the WRX was designed as front wheel drive. That basic design makes a huge difference in platform. Adding AWD to a car with FWD only is drastically different than adding AWD to a RWD car.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

yep!
Subaru has said they will make all of their vehicles on the new platform by 2021. That means everything from the Forester to the new and yet unnamed plug in EV will all use it. Platform sharing does not mean that the final cars have to be the same.
The Lancer, the Jeep Compass, Dodge Caliber and Chrysler 200 shared a platform and they are not even remotely the same set ups. In the 80s the Fox platform was used for the Mustang the LTD and the Thunderbird which again are radically different. For over a decade Chrysler built almost everything on the K platform. Something like 80 (or more?) different vehicles used it.
Same "platform" does not mean that each chassis is identical just that it uses the same basic set up and parts. Floor pans, drive setups, engines and many other aspects can be totally different.

Originally Posted by rvoll

But you need a platform that accommodates both. Do you really see that in the current platform? In addition, all of the Nissan models you named were designed as rear wheel drive while the WRX was designed as front wheel drive. That basic design makes a huge difference in platform. Adding AWD to a car with FWD only is drastically different than adding AWD to a RWD car.

I repeat!
Platforms are much more versatile than being restricted to one drive set up.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by rvoll

But you need a platform that accommodates both. Do you really see that in the current platform? In addition, all of the Nissan models you named were designed as rear wheel drive while the WRX was designed as front wheel drive. That basic design makes a huge difference in platform. Adding AWD to a car with FWD only is drastically different than adding AWD to a RWD car.

The WRX is set up as AWD. It has never been FWD. The BRZ suspension components are already shared with the WRX. You could make a WRX RWD by just replacing the transmission and thus moving the engine back a bit, since the BRZ tranny is shorter because of the missing transaxle. Add the BRZ front spindles and boom. RWD WRX.


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[NCtoBRZ]

Originally Posted by Takumi788

According to your previous post the price was dropped 4k for a bare bones GT86 RC. That is a starting price of 22k. That is a considerable amount for all of the things I (and many others) just got rid of or replaced. It also weights 132 lbs less. Like I said in my previous post, I may be the crazy one, but I would have bought an RC no questions asked.

My post was just using a currency converter and plugging in the values that yoshoobaroo gave us. The prices that they are able to squeeze out of a fugly model like that overseas don't really apply to the US, so it would be over $22k in the US even if they were to offer it like that... which still isn't your magical $20k number.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by NCtoBRZ

My post was just using a currency converter and plugging in the values that yoshoobaroo gave us. The prices that they are able to squeeze out of a fugly model like that overseas don't really apply to the US, so it would be over $22k in the US even if they were to offer it like that... which still isn't your magical $20k number.

Mitsubishi sold a RS Evolution in America that was very similar to the idea of the stripped RC 86. It was stripped of a lot of basic options like air conditioning and they were able to sell it for $3,200 less than the standard Evo.

You make it sound like a RC 86 in the US isn't feasible, but I don't think I agree. Now would Toyota ever go through the extra effort to offer such a car? Probably not.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The WRX is set up as AWD. It has never been FWD. The BRZ suspension components are already shared with the WRX. You could make a WRX RWD by just replacing the transmission and thus moving the engine back a bit, since the BRZ tranny is shorter because of the missing transaxle. Add the BRZ front spindles and boom. RWD WRX.


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I think what is messing with people's heads is the interpretation of the term "platform". They think that means it is a common chassis or structure with a different body plopped on top of it when that isn't even close to the reality.

I struggled on how to describe it but Wikipedia does a pretty good job:
"A car platform is a shared set of common design, engineering, and production efforts, as well as major components over a number of outwardly distinct models and even types of cars, often from different, but related marques."

When viewed from this definition it is easier to understand how so many different cars can share a platform even though they can be radically different.