My Review ~ MX-5 | RX-8 R3 | FR-S

[Texas BRZ]

Originally Posted by iShaveWithKatana

It's amazing how inaccurate OP's review is.

I respect your opinion, without any offense taken.

I'll limit this to the RX-8 vs FR-S (since I drove the FR-S recently and owned an RX-8 for 4 years).

I was in the same shoes, but then I decided to take the dive and become an owner of this 'over-hyped' new sports car.

I suppose the FR-S is the better car for my own taste.

Steering. No contest. Not even close. The RX-8 has superior steering. Enough said.

To me, the R3's steering feels good all the time, and the FR-S' steering feel gets better as you push the car harder... That's just what I felt.

Suspension. Like with the steering, it's not even close. The RX-8 can hunker down at the track and let you drive home in spades of comfort vs the FR-S. It is supremely comfortable as a daily drive, and the FR-S isn't. There's magic in Mazda's suspension setup & tuning.

Yes, there truly is magic in the RX-8's suspension... I even agreed to that in my opening post. And the R3's suspension feels better... But not significantly better... My opinion, of course.

And honestly, the FR-S' suspension is tight and can be sensitive / bumpy, but that's what I like... The R3 was the same way also. Both cars are / were comfortable in driving to the track, and then back to my home... That's what I did, and have done in both cars.

Power. The RX-8 is faster in a straight line and around a track, all things equal, period. Enough said.

Power may be greater in the RX-8, but that was never my focal point in the type of cars I own these days. The RX-8 does however lack the feeling of torque, that's why I stated that the FR-S' engine feels more torquier / stronger, especially in the lower RPM's. My personal feeling.

Handling. This is closer, but the RX-8 still wins. It's easier to wring out its full potential and take advantage of its superior chassis. The FR-S has a low COG like the RX-8, but brings an unecessary level of brutality to the game in terms of ride comfort. A great handling car can still be comfortable to drive; ask an RX-8 or Porsche owner.

The ride in the FR-S may be more firmer / sensitive when compared to a standard RX-8... But when compared to an R3, they both share the similarity more.

And really, the FR-S' ride isn't all that bad as you make it seem to be... And in truth, I really believe it has more to do with the sensitivity and preference of the individual more than anything else.

Interior. This is a no-brainer. The FR-S is positively chintzy by comparison to the RX-8. Materials, gauges, switches and dials are all far better crafted and designed in the Mazda. The FR-S is definitely a Scion loudly on the interior.

The FR-S' interior may be more simple, I agree... But then I feel that you may perhaps be degrading this vehicle more than it deserves to be.

And in reality, what is wrong with the brand Scion? I understand, that the brand has always targeted a younger / youthful audience, but I don't find any fault in the brand this particular sports car is associated with. It more than backs it up, much like the RX-8 does in its own sense of driving pleasure, performance, and feel.

Practicality. Another no brainer. You can actually have two full sized adults sit comfortably in the back seat of an RX-8 and they will not be uncomfortable. That will never happen in an FR-S, where you can't even seat children comfortably, and I doubt a child car seat will fit.

Yes, and I've met / read about several owners who mentioned 'versatility' as one of the reasons in going for the RX-8 over another sports car. Believe me, I was one of them.

I tip my hat off to Mazda in putting their creativity to use in making the RX-8 a surprisingly versatile vehicle... I really do give credit to them.

Furthermore, if you doubt that a car seat will fit in the FR-S, I'd be more than happy to PM you an image of both my 1 year old's full-size car seat behind the front passenger's seat, and also of the booster seat which my 4 year old sits in... Both are used daily. Yes, it's only a slight challenge for my 4 year old to have room for her legs, but I really don't mind sacrificing my own room by scooting up. The FR-S is perhaps not the best long-distance traveler, but it definitely does a good job in taking both my kids and wife around the city and short-distances... All in a fun-to-drive sports car!

Yes, the RX-8 was better in this department... But I can make the FR-S work for myself and my needs.

Braking. RX-8 stops shorter and cleaner all the time, anytime.

Tires have a lot to do with braking (from what I've understood and learned), and the tires in the FR-S are not of higher performance grade like in the RX-8 / R3... Regardless of tires... Yes, the RX-8 does have better braking as I've stated already in my opening post.

Fuel economy. Okay, the FR-S gets a win there.

Okay.

Exterior design. The FR-S is a cleaner and less busy design and takes its second category.

Okay.

It's a knock-out in favor of the RX-8.

The amount of fanboism regarding the Toybarus is unlike any other vehicle, past or present, that I've ever witnessed.

Just looking at some of these thread titles in terms of what some of you are SERIOUSLY comparing the FR-S to is actually so bizarre, many people don't believe me when I tell them (until they visit this forum and see for themselves).

A Porsche Cayman? Really? Based on the fact that some douche in Australia engaged in some of the most unreal hyperbole in the history of auto "journalism?"

I'm glad Toyota/Subaru made this car. It signals a renewed focus to returning to the manufacture of relatively affordable sports cars that check the right boxes in terms of chassis, rwd, handling and minimalism, after an era of automakers trying to redesign economy car platforms into things they were never meant to be and label them as sports cars.

But the FR-S/BRZ are not what many of you claim it is versus the competition.

I'm not trying to be a pr*ck, but just injecting desperately needed realism into the epic level of delusion some (not all) of you are engaging in.

You can curse me or thank me for it, as I really could care less.

And at the end, I'll thank you for stating your opinion and beliefs, as I did the very same in my opening post... We're human, after all. :happy0180:

[Texas BRZ]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

He's trolling. Don't feed the troll.

I know, I know... Just wanted to pay respect to a forum member's time for posting his / her thorough response on this thread.

[Texas BRZ]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

I agree with most of your points but how much seat time did you have with the FR-S/BRZ? Any track comparisons? I know an RX-8 owner who also happens to be a car reviewer and he had pretty great things to say about the FR-S (and yes this was a track comparison). I guess the fact that he still has his RX-8 says something but I don't think it's THAT big of a difference.

That actually brings up a good point... I felt that the R3 was more buttoned-down and more neutral / balanced during my several track days in it... The FR-S is very neutral & balanced too, though it likes to slide more BUT in a very controlled manner which provides immense enjoyment to its driver.

[Bristecom]

"It's not perfect... But it has the engine, it's lightweight, it can be versatile, it's efficient, it has the handling, it's affordable... Simply put, it represents what a sports car should be in our world's current time and economy which we are all a part of."

That's basically my conclusion of this car as well. I kept considering the RX-8 off and on over the years but there's a few reasons why I always decided against one. 1) The styling just doesn't quite do it for me and the double doors look a bit daft, 2) while the engine is unique and smooth, it just doesn't quite deliver enough torque down low to satisfy me and the fuel economy is sub-par and I can't help but worry about its reliability, and 3) I didn't really like the shape or feel of the interior components. It felt better than a Nissan 350/370Z though. And as for the Miata, I loved the older 2G/2005 one but it was just a little too small and impractical for me.

But yeah, I wasn't exactly blown away by the steering in the FR-S. It's good but the ease of getting the rear to come out is what makes it particularly fun over others. But I'd prefer a little more feedback through the steering wheel and maybe a slightly lighter/more responsive feel. Some were comparing the feel to an Evo IX which it definitely doesn't live up to, IMO. It reminds me more of a German car. Perhaps some firmer bushings or coilovers would help with this though. Anyway, the point is that the FR-S is the best new car overall for my wants and needs, albeit not quite perfect/ideal, it's still worth buying and driving for years.

[Texas BRZ]

Originally Posted by iShaveWithKatana

Handling is what the FR-S/BRZ do not just well, but well enough to compensate for a significant power disadvantage against competing cars and allow them to keep up on a twisty track, and this was always the signature hallmark of the RX-8, as well.

While I am merely trying to inject a dose of reality into some of the "comparo" threads, I can't (and would not want to) deny factual truth that the FR-S/BRZ post impressive handling specs and track times on even the stock tires they're shod with, which is a liability out of the gate.

The RX-8 in R3 configuration has a far more uncomfortable suspension for use as a daily driver than the stock RX-8, which strikes an extremely good balance (probably one of the best in history in its class) as between ride quality and handling. Some 8 owners that use their cars as daily drivers have opted to tweak the normal suspension, and put some different coilovers and shocks on it for even better performance at the track, without going all the way towards the harsh setup of the R3.

Even though I've been unfairly accused of all sorts of things because I happen to be somewhat more critical and direct of the shortcomings of the FR-S/BRZ than some (not all) here, I understand confirmation bias as it relates to human psychology, and am not surprised that many of my statements elicit the kneejerk "he's a troll" reaction.

There's only two things that would prevent me from purchasing a FR-S or BRZ down the road:

1) It would have to get a 25%+ bump in power;

2) The backseat would have to be larger.

I envision 1) being addressed, whether factory-wise or aftermarket, but 2) is not going to happen.

Fair enough.

I respect your opinions... And yes, the normal Sport variant would be a better compromise for one seeking a good balance in comfort and sportiness... It's just that my personality likes the firmer & more sensitive feel in the R3 / FR-S. All about preference, and that's always the case in this kind of matter.

I can understand your criticisms about the FR-S / BRZ... Because I also have my own opinions of other vehicles out there, which everyone may not agree to... It's just that I happen to feel more postitive in regards to my current vehicle... And that's exactly why I decided to make the purchase, of course.

All the best.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

"It's not perfect... But it has the engine, it's lightweight, it can be versatile, it's efficient, it has the handling, it's affordable... Simply put, it represents what a sports car should be in our world's current time and economy which we are all a part of."

That's basically my conclusion of this car as well. I kept considering the RX-8 off and on over the years but there's a few reasons why I always decided against one. 1) The styling just doesn't quite do it for me and the double doors look a bit daft, 2) while the engine is unique and smooth, it just doesn't quite deliver enough torque down low to satisfy me and the fuel economy is sub-par and I can't help but worry about its reliability, and 3) I didn't really like the shape or feel of the interior components. It felt better than a Nissan 350/370Z though. And as for the Miata, I loved the older 2G/2005 one but it was just a little too small and impractical for me.

But yeah, I wasn't exactly blown away by the steering in the FR-S. It's good but the ease of getting the rear to come out is what makes it particularly fun over others. But I'd prefer a little more feedback through the steering wheel and maybe a slightly lighter/more responsive feel. Some were comparing the feel to an Evo IX which it definitely doesn't live up to, IMO. It reminds me more of a German car. Perhaps some firmer bushings or coilovers would help with this though. Anyway, the point is that the FR-S is the best new car overall for my wants and needs, albeit not quite perfect/ideal, it's still worth buying and driving for years.

So you like lighter steering? I'm trying to understand this point here. I love my steering medium heavy or heavy over medium,medium light, and light. Where does the FRS fall in your opinion? And where would you like it on that scale?

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

So you like lighter steering? I'm trying to understand this point here. I love my steering medium heavy or heavy over medium,medium light, and light. Where does the FRS fall in your opinion? And where would you like it on that scale?

Well, there is a fine balance. The FR-S seems to be on the heavier side of steering but I wouldn't say it's too heavy. I would probably just fine tune it ever so slightly lighter and try to firm up the steering wheel/rack/suspension dampening to get more feedback and feel through the steering wheel. Also, I thought it didn't move with immediacy/urgency and took more of a stable approach. I'm not sure exactly why that would be but I have a feeling it's due to the 20 mm wider track in the rear. So I would probably tone that down to only 5 mm wider in the rear and adjust the springs and dampers accordingly to dial out the additional oversteer that would cause.

[midenginebias]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

iv had plenty of seat time in the rx8...great car, it performs much better than the FRS in nearly every category,

but if i had the keys and choice to drive away with a BRZ or rx8 id still pick the BRZ without hesitation. The BRZ was a much more rewarding car to drive from my time iv spent with the rx8. If it was against a FD rx7, FD would be better choice overall from the BRZ. Because it has that level of feeling and reward the BRZ has and more + good performance to back it up.

Agreed. During the Heya Project for the FR-S/BRZ, the Rx-8 was a huge influence on the dynamics of the vehicle. (Guess who thought of the digital speedo with 270* sweep tach.) However, as mentioned earlier, the Rx-8's chassis responsiveness, ride quality, steering feel, and initial turn in are a level above the FR-S/BRZ.

That being said, I am anticipating a strut/spring setup that most closely resembles the Rx-8's ride quality and handling at the limit, concurrent with the STi arms/pillowball set up for the rear and custom upper arms in the front for absolute direct feel through the chassis.

The magic is trying to provide direct feel and chassis responsiveness to the driver's inputs, while still maintaining a supple ride with dynamic handling limits.

The Rx-8 was always an engine away from greatness. The FR-S/BRZ is the closest compromise.

Now, I prefer the FR-S/BRZ interior layout instead of the Rx-8

[Texas BRZ]

I managed to find some pictures of my previous two cars and also my current FR-S... Just felt like posting, haha... Yup, last three cars are red!

Btw, I feel that the R3 was so gorgeous, and those wheels were to die for...

[scorcherjf]

I'm a bit biased obviously but yes... your R3 was gorgeous lol.

[Deslock]

Didn't see this thread until today. As I have 3000 miles on my 6MT BRZ and my last two cars were a '99 5MT MX5 and a '04 6MT RX8, here are a few more comments (about the base RX8 rather than the R3, and the NB rather than NC).

PRACTICALITY

Utility is a toss up between the BRZ and RX8. Their trunks about about the same size (both are larger than the MX5's). The BRZ trunk opening is larger and its fold-flat seats allow for easier transport of cargo (I put 4 wheels in the BRZ without any problem, and the BRZ already has a mostly-full-size spare). To be fair to the RX8, the opening between the pillars is huge, but the passenger compartment is awkwardly shaped for large objects.

The RX8 wins when it comes to carrying more than two people because its rear seats have far more head and leg room, and the suicide doors make access easier. However, my boys love riding in the BRZ. Kids can fit back there just fine (at least behind average size adults).

Fuel efficiency is the rotary's achilles heel. For my driving cycle (mostly short rural trips, only 10% highway):

• RX8 17 MPG (range ~280 miles)
• MX5 26 MPG (range ~310 miles)
• BRZ 29 MPG (range ~380 miles)

On the highway, for me it's been:

• RX8 23 MPG (range ~380 miles)
• MX5 30 MPG (range ~350 miles)
• BRZ 34 MPG (range ~440 miles)

COMFORT

RX8 wins this one, followed by the MX5, followed by the BRZ. All are soft enough as a daily driver. The MX5 is loud on the highway, even with the top up.

DYNAMICS

The MX5's short wheelbase makes it a fun and exciting low-speed runabout, while it's out of its element at high speeds. The RX8's long wheelbase gives it high speed stability, but makes it less engaging for low speed tight turns. The BRZ is in-between.

The BRZ's tighter suspension and ultra-low COG make it super responsive to direction changes (though the RX8 with its low yaw moment also excels here).

The MX5's chassis is a step down from the others.

When it comes to nimbleness, the MX5 is the winner. Its ~450 pounds advantage vs the BRZ and ~600 pounds advantage vs the RX8 are noticeable (notes: the current MX5 is ~200 pounds heavier, and my comparison is between a base RX8 and loaded BRZ).

Steering is better in the RX8 and BRZ than the MX5 (though the 10AE's and the NC's are both better than my NB's).

All three shifters are excellent. The MX5's is effortless, while the BRZ's is a bit shorter and notchier. The RX8's is slightly better than the others overall.

The BRZ's throttle is slightly more responsive than the others, but all three are energetic. The RX8's engine is smoothest and revs most eagerly. The BRZ's boxer rumble is there, though it's not as pronounced as it is on the WRX and STI.

None of these cars have much low-end. The RX8 wins when it comes to balls-out shifting-to-redline acceleration. The MX5 is a slug compared to the others, but it still has enough pep as a daily driver (and the NC is almost as fast as the BRZ).

SUMMARY

Most cars today are bloated and overpowered, relying too much on grip for handling. All three of these cars reject that trend, and it's a big part of why I enjoy them so much (and why benchracers don't get them).

IMO, the FT86 is currently the best jack-of-all-trades car (if you can get by with a small rear seat).

[Curves]

Great review both Texas-FRS and Deslock. I enjoyed reading your opinions.

[Texas BRZ]

Originally Posted by Curves

Great review both Texas-FRS and Deslock. I enjoyed reading your opinions.

Pleased to know of your appreciation for both of our inputs!

[tv4184]

I too also enjoyed the read.