President of SOA says BRZ needs more performance

[drewbot]

Originally Posted by krayzie

Very apparent that SOA has no idea how to sell the BRZ because American car executives only know how to equate car performance with engine output due to the vast ruler straight roads we have here in North America.

I don't think there will be a 2nd gen BRZ if Toyota doesn't need Subaru's production line anymore. The 86 should get another round to co-exist with the next Supra, and supposedly a 3rd sports car to round out the lower end in order to complete the trio (I keep thinking MR2 here).

It will probably make more sense to marketing if Subaru then utilizes the freed up production capacity to do an Alcyone (meaning a true sports flagship with AWD) for a 3rd time. But I really hope Subaru gets a new head stylist first and maybe bring back frameless windows to the entire lineup for starters (the current lineup is so ugly it makes even the Leone looked fantastic in comparison).

Sadly many people go out and equate their spec sheets to increase the buldge in their pants

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[DarkSunrise]

It never really seemed like Subaru wanted the BRZ in their lineup to begin with and had to be convinced to join the partnership. Doesnt really matter what Subaru does at this point to be honest, as long as Toyota continues the car's development.

[TheBRZ]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

It never really seemed like Subaru wanted the BRZ in their lineup to begin with and had to be convinced to join the partnership. Doesnt really matter what Subaru does at this point to be honest, as long as Toyota continues the car's development.

Hmm.. I don't know, Subaru is really happy with how the development of the car turned out, and rightfully so. It's just a bummer the design is to much Toyota.
Also Yasuyuki Yoshinaga said that the BRZ will get (something of-) a followup model. Last year he famously said: "If I were to be told that, I'd pass out, It's not going to be just one generation."

Sales are on a decline, a power-upgrade surely will fix it and perhaps get the market ready for the 2nd gen!

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by TheBRZ

Hmm.. I don't know, Subaru is really happy with how the development of the car turned out, and rightfully so. It's just a bummer the design is to much Toyota.
Also Yasuyuki Yoshinaga said that the BRZ will get (something of-) a followup model. Last year he famously said: "If I were to be told that, I'd pass out, It's not going to be just one generation."

Sales are on a decline, a power-upgrade surely will fix it and perhaps get the market ready for the 2nd gen!

I think Subaru was eventually happy with the car, but certainly in the beginning had their doubts. Masuda and Tamou are quoted as being skeptical about how a naturally-aspirated RWD sports car would fit the Subaru lineup and whether Subaru would be able to recoup its investment costs.

I think internally Subaru faces the same doubts again as they decide whether and how much to invest into a second generation BRZ.

Personally I don't think they make that leap of faith unless they have another partner to split development costs with. For example, if Toyota decides they want to partner with Mazda or forego a partner for the second generation GT86, I just can't see a relatively small company like Subaru deciding to release a second-gen BRZ on its own. It would be a high-risk, low-reward endeavor. A lightweight NA RWD coupe just doesn't fit their business model, and a turbocharged version would cannibalize their WRX/STI sales.

I could be wrong, but that's my take on Subaru's position at the moment.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by TheBRZ

Sales are on a decline, a power-upgrade surely will fix it and perhaps get the market ready for the 2nd gen!

I am always amazed when people say that a power increase will improve sales. It will not necessarily improve them since for every "more power bro" that wants it they will lose at least one sale to the "Average Joe". They will take it for a test drive and be scared shitless, wanted better mileage or are not willing to pay the price that more power will drive the car up to (it won't be free). We tend to forget that many (most?) of these cars are not bought by the enthusiast but by people that think it looks cool or just wanted a small, sporty coupe. This is also why there are so many low mileage used ones around since people used to nothing but FWDs bought them and found out that RWD is not the same and did not suit their planned usage.
My point is that to have huge sales a car needs to fit the needs of several demographics and although more power will certainly bring in one group it will completely turn off others.

[berkbrzfan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

My point is that to have huge sales a car needs to fit the needs of several demographics and although more power will certainly bring in one group it will completely turn off others.

Price is everything.

There are enough people complaining that a base Mustang offers more power for almost the same cost. There are people who argue that a higher priced and performance version should sell well because that is what the enthusiasts want!

But what people do not realize is that this car started out as catering to a smaller customer base than other similar performance options. The WRX and STIs sell well because they offer the best of many worlds. Increasing the price further through more performance means filtering out the already niche customer base further. One of the reasons why I bought the BRZ was it was only costing as much as a fully loaded family sedan.

Everybody wants more power. For the same cost, sure... For a price touching the mid thirties, not so sure...

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by berkbrzfan

Price is everything.
because that is what the enthusiasts want!
.

That is the problem, right there. The automotive enthusiast is a dying breed. Dollar for dollar, Subaru, or any other car manufacturer for that matter, will sell more cars by adding more connectivity, convenience and gadgets than they will by adding power. Make the car faster or make the car a wi-Fi hot spot. Which one is the Reddit-Facebook-Instagram crowd going to go for?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Rampage

That is the problem, right there. The automotive enthusiast is a dying breed. Dollar for dollar, Subaru, or any other car manufacturer for that matter, will sell more cars by adding more connectivity, convenience and gadgets than they will by adding power. Make the car faster or make the car a wi-Fi hot spot. Which one is the Reddit-Facebook-Instagram crowd going to go for?

Cars passed that tipping point a long time ago. There are plenty of creature comfort features in the 86, as "base" as it is, that could have been forgone or made options so money could be spent elsewhere.

Look at all the threads on here arguing that the FR-S should have dual climate control and remote keyless entry like the BRZ. Sorry, don't need either one of those but I'm going to guess the next time I go to buy a new car I won't have the option to NOT get it.

[raven1231]

no one knows shit. Except for Toyota/Subaru

[rlpaul]

Originally Posted by Vides990

My reasoning is the disolving relationship between toyota and subaru

Not picking on you in particular @Vides990, so please don't take offense

I find these comments amusing. How is the relationship dissolving?

Toyota owns a portion of Fuji Heavy Industries. Which in turn owns Subaru outright. Therefore, by definition, they have a relationship, whether people want to believe it or not.

The articles are all corporate speak. Just because Tada says "That's a possibility" doesn't make it so. He can't speak about the development of the next gen 86 because... its in development. So he can't confirm or deny anything really.

Now, lets say that the next gen 86 is a BMW/Toyota developed car. The current production line is all Subaru driven, so there's a good chance the BRZ would continue, but based upon the existing chassis. So they'd split. This is not necessarily a bad thing either, as it offers more choices to us, the consumers.

Keep in mind too, a well engineered chassis can be used for a long time. The NC was putting smiles on faces for 10 years before Mazda released the new ND.

So, considering how good the FT-86 chassis is, seems a little early to me to be talking about a new partnership already. Or at the very least, talking about a new chassis.

[Vides990]

Originally Posted by rlpaul

Not picking on you in particular @Vides990, so please don't take offense

I find these comments amusing. How is the relationship dissolving?

Toyota owns a portion of Fuji Heavy Industries. Which in turn owns Subaru outright. Therefore, by definition, they have a relationship, whether people want to believe it or not.

The articles are all corporate speak. Just because Tada says "That's a possibility" doesn't make it so. He can't speak about the development of the next gen 86 because... its in development. So he can't confirm or deny anything really.

Now, lets say that the next gen 86 is a BMW/Toyota developed car. The current production line is all Subaru driven, so there's a good chance the BRZ would continue, but based upon the existing chassis. So they'd split. This is not necessarily a bad thing either, as it offers more choices to us, the consumers.

Keep in mind too, a well engineered chassis can be used for a long time. The NC was putting smiles on faces for 10 years before Mazda released the new ND.

So, considering how good the FT-86 chassis is, seems a little early to me to be talking about a new partnership already. Or at the very least, talking about a new chassis.

No offense taken, so please don't take any as well.

Toyota owns a mere 16.5% of Fuji and its been well reported that the management of Fuji has not meshed well with Toyota's management since they increased their ownership % to that 16.5. Fuji has also decided to stop making the Camry for Toyota as they try to distance themselves from the company and how they interact. Fuji doesn't want to end up as joint venture or in a partnership, they want control over themselves and Subaru didn't initially want to by involved in the 86 platform to begin with, Toyota basically dragged them into it.

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2...py-road-ahead/

http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...toyota-in-2016

Clearly because of ownership there is a relationship, but its not a well working one and Fuji clearly wants more distance.

I believe Tada can speak on the developments, as he actually is the person in charge of the how the vehicle will move forward, can he confirm or deny anything, obviously not because of legal ramifications but when you read between the lines and take the multitude of "sources" into consideration its easy to come to a conclusion that everything is not peachy between the two companies.

I agree that Subaru has alot invested in both the chasis and the assembly process, utilizing both they could re-tool and offer a new vehicle, the SVX as I previously mentioned, which they have currently re-patented.

I don't expect the BRZ to die by 2017/2018 or anything like that, I think the 1st gen 86 (frs & brz) gets dragged out until the 2020 time frame (7-8 year cycle is about right for low productin sports cars) where the two companies then split and toyota/bmw offer the 86 and subie sells the svx.

[Dave5454]

I agree, an AWD BRZ with a more powerful engine (NA or not) would be a good start. Heavier yes ... but in the NE US in the winter I'd happily pay the price/weight difference.

[TylerLieberman]

I love the BRZ as it is, but seeing it go in a different direction would be cool I think. You could have an NA RWD coupe from Toyota/Scion, or a Turbo AWD coupe from Subaru.

Thinking about a Turbo AWD BRZ makes me think back to the 2 door GC8 WRX/STI, and I absolutely love those things. That would be cool to see, but I won't hold my breath lol.

Everything is still just speculation, but I'm sure we'll see another 10 clickbait links from sites and people posting in various forums/groups about the BRZ being confirmed to be removed from Subaru's lineup, or that Subaru confirmed the BRZ will get Turbo and AWD.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by TylerLieberman

I love the BRZ as it is, but seeing it go in a different direction would be cool I think. You could have an NA RWD coupe from Toyota/Scion, or a Turbo AWD coupe from Subaru.

Thinking about a Turbo AWD BRZ makes me think back to the 2 door GC8 WRX/STI, and I absolutely love those things. That would be cool to see, but I won't hold my breath lol.

Everything is still just speculation, but I'm sure we'll see another 10 clickbait links from sites and people posting in various forums/groups about the BRZ being confirmed to be removed from Subaru's lineup, or that Subaru confirmed the BRZ will get Turbo and AWD.

What? Now why would you think that? Don't forget all the anticipation threads for the garbage release series offerings!!!