Do You Purposefully Avoid Rank in Place of Employment

[DarkPira7e]

Let me explain, since misleading title is likely misleading.

I work at a hospital. I do IT support, so I work with everyone- patient to CEO. Most of my co-workers identify doctors as "doctor" rather than using their name. For instance rather than "Yes, of course Ellis" it'd be "Yes, of course doctor".

I almost make it my mission statement to be sure I treat everyone as an equal to myself. This may seem like common sense, but believe me, in a role as social as IT support, there is a lot of implicit and explicit bias on both ends.
The doctors look down on IT staff, the IT staff think doctors are thankless airheads. The environmental services staff (trash and floor duty) staff think IT staff are genius, and IT staff think they are illiterate 3rd world sleeze. IT staffing are afraid to break rank and directly address or speak to other IT department managers or chairs, etc.

I am pleasant, and offer the same level of encouragement through whatever trouble the person I'm helping is experiencing. I seem to be unique in my department, because I don't mind directly approaching my department chair if I have a question. I refer to doctors by their given name, I don't sigh before answering a page from the kitchen staff or talk about how dumb a patient was after helping them with my peers.

Flattening out this nonsense makes my job way easier, more fun, and rewarding. My teammates think I'm commiting career suicide by not treating doctors or my management as lords. I've never been chastised by anyone for "not being respectful". I also refuse to be treated like a dog, so of course I know I'm being rebellious.

Anyway, enough word vomit; what are your thoughts? Do you have a tendency to avoid employment rank when working with people? Do you fear speaking out of turn to your manager and being shit-canned, or do you talk to them as you would your neighbor or co-workers? I certainly have no plans to change, I'm just curious. Also, I need to add this- I am in no way disrespectful, I just ignore social hierarchy.

[Dadhawk]

@DarkPira7e, I work in a similar environment (IT Director in a hospital system including ambulatory clinics), and have worked in other environments with similar personnel (I've been in the clinical lab business, as well as the airline business).

I'm also a bit old-school, probably because I'm older.

Calling someone that has earned the degree Doctor as "Doctor" so and so, is just polite, it isn't treating them as gods. I also refer to persons more senior than me (either in age (although I've about outrun that one, or rank) by Mr. or Ms. unless they tell me otherwise. I would do the same with Military rank or other persons with official titles (Doctor is an official title, just like Major or President).

I also don't just call them Doctor, but I use their name. So it's Doctor Kildare, not Doc or Doctor, just like I wouldn't call you "Hey Bud" instead of your name if I knew you.

No, it's probably not career suicide, but you will eventually run into someone that feels their hard work, money and time they put into earning the title (and they did earn it) earns them the right to insist you call them by it.

Like it or not, to some people if you "ignore social hierarchy" you are being disrespectful.

That is entirely different conversation than "being treated like a dog". I've corrected more than one person "of rank" in my career or refused to talk to them until they stopped ranting at me.

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

@DarkPira7e, I work in a similar environment (IT Director in a hospital system including ambulatory clinics), and have worked in other environments with similar personnel (I've been in the clinical lab business, as well as the airline business).

I'm also a bit old-school, probably because I'm older.

Calling someone that has earned the degree Doctor as "Doctor" so and so, is just polite, it isn't treating them as gods. I also refer to persons more senior than me (either in age (although I've about outrun that one, or rank) by Mr. or Ms. unless they tell me otherwise. I would do the same with Military rank or other persons with official titles (Doctor is an official title, just like Major or President).

I also don't just call them Doctor, but I use their name. So it's Doctor Kildare, not Doc or Doctor, just like I wouldn't call you "Hey Bud" instead of your name if I knew you.

No, it's probably not career suicide, but you will eventually run into someone that feels their hard work, money and time they put into earning the title (and they did earn it) earns them the right to insist you call them by it.

Like it or not, to some people if you "ignore social hierarchy" you are being disrespectful.

That is entirely different conversation than "being treated like a dog". I've corrected more than "of rank" in my career or refused to talk to them until they stopped ranting at me.

Thank you for the perspective, I appreciate the time you've taken with your response. I do agree that it is a nice gesture above all else, I suppose just that I've noticed the people who lay the lowest are walked on by doctors much more frequently. This may be culture at my hospital more than anything else- a lot of the doctors here do seem to treat us as dogs and are disrespectful, rude, and belittling. I find that the more I work with them as an individual rather than their title, the less I get talked down to. I understand completely where you're coming from - it really may be that I'm young still and don't call people "Mr. Deschamps" because I find it awkward.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

@DarkPira7e, I work in a similar environment (IT Director in a hospital system including ambulatory clinics), and have worked in other environments with similar personnel (I've been in the clinical lab business, as well as the airline business).

I'm also a bit old-school, probably because I'm older.

Calling someone that has earned the degree Doctor as "Doctor" so and so, is just polite, it isn't treating them as gods. I also refer to persons more senior than me (either in age (although I've about outrun that one, or rank) by Mr. or Ms. unless they tell me otherwise. I would do the same with Military rank or other persons with official titles (Doctor is an official title, just like Major or President).

I also don't just call them Doctor, but I use their name. So it's Doctor Kildare, not Doc or Doctor, just like I wouldn't call you "Hey Bud" instead of your name if I knew you.

No, it's probably not career suicide, but you will eventually run into someone that feels their hard work, money and time they put into earning the title (and they did earn it) earns them the right to insist you call them by it.

Like it or not, to some people if you "ignore social hierarchy" you are being disrespectful.

That is entirely different conversation than "being treated like a dog". I've corrected more than "of rank" in my career or refused to talk to them until they stopped ranting at me.

This ^


And too add to it. There is also a time and place where "Rank" is indeed important in performing a job. Sometimes if people in "authority" get too familiar with those that work for/with them things can get awkward fast. I am a senior manager but my job means I interact with the production workers all the time. We joke around and get along fine but then when something goes wrong and I have to ream them out they may not take things as seriously as they should. Yes there are different "ranks" in society and unfortunately they exist for valid reasons. If the lines get blurred too much then things can fall apart fast.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

disrespectful, rude, and belittling. I

Ironically enough this has been my personal experience with IT people since the trade first appeared! I may just have been very unlucky in my exposure to them but everyplace I have ever worked having to contact and deal with IT was something I have avoided at all costs. They are worse than engineers to deal with.

[DarkPira7e]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ironically enough this has been my personal experience with IT people since the trade first appeared! I may just have been very unlucky in my exposure to them but everyplace I have ever worked having to contact and deal with IT was something I have avoided at all costs. They are worse than engineers to deal with.

Sorry, you may have posted something useful, but I couldn't be bothered to read the musings of a peasant.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

,...a lot of the doctors here do seem to treat us as dogs and are disrespectful, rude, and belittling. I find that the more I work with them as an individual rather than their title, the less I get talked down to. I understand completely where you're coming from...:

Every hospital (and profession) has their share of those types. Those are the ones I don't tolerate very long. There are always the few no one wants to deal with, or it takes a special kind of tact to get your point across. I still show them the "title respect" they deserve but I also explain to them that they will not treat me (or my employees) that way.

It helps that I have the ability to remain perfectly calm in these types of situations which in itself often sends the other person into a stomping off tirade and I just smile and say "Let me know when you are ready for me to help" as I walk off.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Sorry, you may have posted something useful, but I couldn't be bothered to read the musings of a peasant.

How very IT of you!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Every hospital (and profession) has their share of those types. There are always the few no one wants to deal with, or it takes a special kind of tact to get your point across.

They are often on the fast track for CEO!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ironically enough this has been my personal experience with IT people since the trade first appeared! I may just have been very unlucky in my exposure to them but everyplace I have ever worked having to contact and deal with IT was something I have avoided at all costs. They are worse than engineers to deal with.

I think one of the reasons I've been relatively successful in the IT field is because I have some level of social skills. It may be because I started off in a totally different direction (my undergraduate degree is Philosophy, with a Math Minor) and stumbled into IT>

There are two types of IT folks, those that you lock in a room, shove pizza under the door, and let them solve problems, and the ones you let actually talk to people while they are solving problems.

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Sorry, you may have posted something useful, but I couldn't be bothered to read the musings of a peasant.

IT Master Race Rules!! ugh...I mean... now @DarPir7e that's no way to treat @Tcoat...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I think one of the reasons I've been relatively successful in the IT field is because I have some level of social skills. It may be because I started off in a totally different direction (my undergraduate degree is Philosophy, with a Math Minor) and stumbled into IT>

There are two types of IT folks, those that you lock in a room, shove pizza under the door, and let them solve problems, and the ones you let actually talk to people while they are solving problems.



IT Master Race Rules!! ugh...I mean... now @DarPir7e that's no way to treat @Tcoat...

Yep. All but the first of the IT guys (the guy that upgraded my system for a 386 to a spectacular 486) I ever worked with had done nothing else. I am convinced that they have a mandatory course in Basic Rudeness Belittling and Expressing Self Importance 101.

[qcbaker]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

what are your thoughts?

My previous job was in healthcare IT. I called doctors "Dr. <Last Name>" usually, just because that was their proper title, just as I would use "Mr." or "Ms." to refer to anyone whose title I didn't know, regardless of their "rank". I wouldn't say I "avoid" rank, but I also wouldn't say that I put much stock in it.

Disclaimer: the following statement could be seen as controversial and I am not interested in having an ideological debate about it.

I believe that meritocracy is an illusion. Yes, working harder generally gets you further, but its not anywhere near as simple as that. I've met helpdesk guys that were way more talented than me who never got promoted and I've met IT directors/VPs/CIOs/etc. who make >$100K a year that can't tell ethernet from USB. I don't immediately assume someone is competent just because they're "above" me in rank. Same goes for people below me. So, without knowing them personally, I don't look up to people above me and I don't look down to people below me.

Do you fear speaking out of turn to your manager and being shit-canned, or do you talk to them as you would your neighbor or co-workers?

I don't really think those two things are mutually exclusive. While I certainly don't fear getting fired for "speaking out of turn", I also don't really speak out of turn. If I know what I'm talking about and believe I can add value to the discussion, I'll respectfully and professionally say what's on my mind regardless of the rank of the person I'm talking to.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by DarkPira7e

Let me explain, since misleading title is likely misleading.

I work at a hospital. I do IT support, so I work with everyone- patient to CEO. Most of my co-workers identify doctors as "doctor" rather than using their name. For instance rather than "Yes, of course Ellis" it'd be "Yes, of course doctor".

I almost make it my mission statement to be sure I treat everyone as an equal to myself. This may seem like common sense, but believe me, in a role as social as IT support, there is a lot of implicit and explicit bias on both ends.
The doctors look down on IT staff, the IT staff think doctors are thankless airheads. The environmental services staff (trash and floor duty) staff think IT staff are genius, and IT staff think they are illiterate 3rd world sleeze. IT staffing are afraid to break rank and directly address or speak to other IT department managers or chairs, etc.

I am pleasant, and offer the same level of encouragement through whatever trouble the person I'm helping is experiencing. I seem to be unique in my department, because I don't mind directly approaching my department chair if I have a question. I refer to doctors by their given name, I don't sigh before answering a page from the kitchen staff or talk about how dumb a patient was after helping them with my peers.

Flattening out this nonsense makes my job way easier, more fun, and rewarding. My teammates think I'm commiting career suicide by not treating doctors or my management as lords. I've never been chastised by anyone for "not being respectful". I also refuse to be treated like a dog, so of course I know I'm being rebellious.

Anyway, enough word vomit; what are your thoughts? Do you have a tendency to avoid employment rank when working with people? Do you fear speaking out of turn to your manager and being shit-canned, or do you talk to them as you would your neighbor or co-workers? I certainly have no plans to change, I'm just curious. Also, I need to add this- I am in no way disrespectful, I just ignore social hierarchy.

Also in IT here. I work the exactly the same way as you. I'm a software developer for a wholesale distribution company. We write EVERYTHING in house so I literally deal with everyone in the company including the guys in the warehouse that are driving forklifts. These guys may not make a ton of money but they are super nice people and I have no problem hanging out back there shooting the shit with them. Because of this it's WAY easier to work with them to smash bugs. I can get much more detail out of them than "it just doesn't work". I've always been bugged by the whole class structure crap. I don't work with doctors at my job but I never refer to doctors I know personally as doctor. My brother in law is a doctor and I've asked him if it bothers him when people don't call him doctor and he said no but knows plenty of doctors that are bothered by it. My brother in law is a very down to earth guy that wasn't raised with a family with lots of money. His dad is actually a mechanic. So the class structure crap isn't his thing either. You would have no clue he was a doctor until you ask him a question about the medical field and then he switches into doctor mode where he rattles off a bunch of gibberish like he is talking to another doctor friend. Hahaha

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by qcbaker

I don't immediately assume someone is competent just because they're "above" me in rank. Same goes for people below me. So, without knowing them personally, I don't look up to people above me and I don't look down to people below me.



I don't really think those two things are mutually exclusive. While I certainly don't fear getting fired for "speaking out of turn", I also don't really speak out of turn. If I know what I'm talking about and believe I can add value to the discussion, I'll respectfully and professionally say what's on my mind regardless of the rank of the person I'm talking to.

Not at all controversial and exactly how things should be done. Either "above" or "below" respect is earned not demanded. In the hospital case it can not function properly without the head of surgery or the guy that dumps the trash cans.


Again you nailed it. If you are responded to a dipshit in a dipshit manner than you are no better than they are and dipshittery rules.