That engine though. Where will it sit among the great 4cyl NA's?

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

They did not test the mule. The whole idea of a mule is to try engineering. It is not a finished product.
They ran several engines (not in cars, had never been in cars) on a standalone dyno that connects directly to the drive shaft. This is done in a climate controlled room so that each test is done under the exact same condition. These conditions simulate the perfect operating temperature, humidity and even air pressure at 0 feet above sea level. These are then the numbers that they publish. The only thing they are even remotely good for is the marketing people to push as to how much power the engine is. The testing standards are a couple of hundred pages long. Here is what you can see for free. https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:...550:ed-2:v1:en
So if you want to call that graph a "dyno" then sure but that squiggly line is made by running a perfect engine under perfect conditions and the numbers have little meaning in the real world other than for bench racers to compare against number in other cars.

The fake animation is relevant in it's deceit and can not just be dismissed because you don't care about it. Like the fixe graph it is showing what the car would do under those perfect conditions not what it is actually doing. It is just supporting the lie.

It is possible (not probable but still possible) for the power put to the wheels on the new car to be LOWER than we have now.

I think if the shape of the torque curve shown on the screen was completely wrong, there would be some hell to pay down the road. I believe the shape displayed on the screen can be used as an approximation of maximum engine output relative to rpm, at least until it becomes available for 3rd party testing which I imagine we will be seeing before most of us can even get a test drive.

Subaru has published their max hp and torque estimates at the crank, which I believe would be fairly accurate under lab conditions. There are no numbers on the torque/hp plot on the screen iirc. But it's not unreasonable to apply the published numbers to get a rough scale for the unmarked torque/power cubes to see how it compares to the current car.

Yes, if Subaru decided to make their wheels out of depleted uranium you might see lower output at the wheels. I think it is safe to assume it will have greater output at the wheels at this point.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No no it is not. It is a theoretical display of what the car should be doing at those RPMs. It just happens to look like a dyno since it is displaying the same info. Even the live lines do not vary one little bit no matter what the weather or driving conditions are. I have watched. It is just a gimmick and not a real measure of what the car is actually doing.
I am interested in seeing what an actual at the wheel reading is (even though those are a poor data source as well but that is a whole different story) since that tells the real truth of the cars performance.

Im sure its just like the first gen 86, where its merely a picture that represents the power curve of the motor, and nothing more than that.

Just makes it a fun thing to see when you rev the engine and see the powerband.

And just like the first gen pic shows that torque dip pretty prominently, the new one shows it mostly reduced.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by alone1i

Off topic, how about our first gen FA20 engine? Why we can't respect it as a great engine. It is 2L, makes 100HP/litre, reliable for 8 years.

Yeah, I mean                    that absolutely should be appreciated more.
            it           engine
                is a great

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

You really think that.

Well, perhaps I'm going crazy.

Cause what you are saying seems completely and utterly wrong.

A) they would have done plenty of dyno's on those test mules, I don't care how many they had, whatever was set to the final spec.

B) Of course its an image of the dyno.

C) There is ZERO chance this will have less power at the wheels.... Zero dude zero.

So, I think one of us are mad. You have posted more often here and should know a lot more, so I give you a point in your favor for being more sane. HOWEVER you have also just spend a load of cash on getting the final
Toyota 86 Hakone, which I think counts against your sanity for this particular topic.

So we are even.

Lets call it a draw where I win.

Yep waste of time.

[Baldeagle]

Curious question. Does anyone know how many degrees Subaru’s VVT phases the cam timing when it operates under the Atkinson cycle? Perhaps more relevant to this compression ratio discussion, does the ECU phase the cam timing to control knock? If yes, how much does it reduce the effective compression ratio?

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Yep waste of time.

Lets say it together.

"Its a picture of a dyno chart of the new BRZ 2022."

"This car will have more power then the current gen"

"Blighty we are even but you win"

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Baldeagle

Curious question. Does anyone know how many degrees Subaru’s VVT phases the cam timing when it operates under the Atkinson cycle? Perhaps more relevant to this compression ratio discussion, does the ECU phase the cam timing to control knock? If yes, how much does it reduce the effective compression ratio?

I would imagine you might find better answers to that outside of this thread.

Not saying you can't hijack it (I have practically hijacked it myself joking around with T), but you might not get a quick response.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Lets say it together.

"Its a picture of a dyno chart of the new BRZ 2022."

"This car will have more power then the current gen"

"Blighty we are even but you win"

It is not a competition.


The picture is not a dyno. It is a mathematical approximation based on several factors of which a dyno is just one consideration.




The rated power and torque are 14% higher for HP and 15% for torque. These are better but not massive changes and when we know what it puts to the ground we will have a better idea of how it stacks up against the first gen.


Paper racers will race on paper.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Baldeagle

Curious question. Does anyone know how many degrees Subaru’s VVT phases the cam timing when it operates under the Atkinson cycle? Perhaps more relevant to this compression ratio discussion, does the ECU phase the cam timing to control knock? If yes, how much does it reduce the effective compression ratio?

That much detail is not even remotely know for this version of the engine yet.

[Baldeagle]

Originally Posted by Blighty

I have practically hijacked it myself joking around with T.

FWIW, I think this forum is great. I really like it’s thought provoking banter. There is no question this forum contains a lot of experience-based, educated, civil members. I don’t think you highjacked the thread. On the contrary, I think you added value.

[sneaky_pete]

When I think of classic NA 4 cylinder engines I think of 4AGE, SR20DE, K/F Series, G13B (often overlooked gem).

Whilst the FA20, even with it flaws, makes impressive numbers from its 2.0 litres it will never be a classic engine. The FA24 will likely be the same.

As others have said the big question will be how tuneable the FA24 will be given the higher compression ratio. In my experience the FA20 responds well to a tune (because the stock tune is just sh#t), hi-flow flat panel air filter element, catless headers and overpipe which delivers smoother idle/running, better throttle response more power and torque where you need it. Clearly an engine that was strangled from the factory to meet emissions. The FA24 will likely be the same but with that higher compression ratio mucking around with tunes could be a dangerous exercise.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Spuds

I think if the shape of the torque curve shown on the screen was completely wrong, there would be some hell to pay down the road. I believe the shape displayed on the screen can be used as an approximation of maximum engine output relative to rpm, at least until it becomes available for 3rd party testing which I imagine we will be seeing before most of us can even get a test drive.

Subaru has published their max hp and torque estimates at the crank, which I believe would be fairly accurate under lab conditions. There are no numbers on the torque/hp plot on the screen iirc. But it's not unreasonable to apply the published numbers to get a rough scale for the unmarked torque/power cubes to see how it compares to the current car.

Yes, if Subaru decided to make their wheels out of depleted uranium you might see lower output at the wheels. I think it is safe to assume it will have greater output at the wheels at this point.

At no point have I disputed the "accuracy" of those graphs. I have simply tried to establish that other than on paper they mean very little. They are in no way showing what the actual car is putting out and are very strictly aligned to labratory test conditions not real life. They have to be 100% accurate to the measuring standard or can not be certified or claimed.
Yes I would asumme that though the power to the wheels will suffer the standard 15% to 20% loss in HP and torque that every other normal production car suffers so that would indeed still make it 15% or so more powerful than the old engine but weirder things have happened. Was pretty clear that it is not probable nor likly but not impossible.

Now I want depleted uranium wheels just to say I have them!

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

At no point have I disputed the "accuracy" of those graphs. I have simply tried to establish that other than on paper they mean very little. They are in no way showing what the actual car is putting out and are very strictly aligned to labratory test conditions not real life. They have to be 100% accurate to the measuring standard or can not be certified or claimed.
Yes I would asumme that though the power to the wheels will suffer the standard 15% to 20% loss in HP and torque that every other normal production car suffers so that would indeed still make it 15% or so more powerful than the old engine but weirder things have happened. Was pretty clear that it is not probable nor likly but not impossible.

Now I want depleted uranium wheels just to say I have them!

You are correct that no manufacturers HP/TQ numbers are accurate in the real world. But it is useful to compare the standard test runs between different cars and use our experience to heuristically estimate what that means in the real world. The comparison is what has value here, not the real world numbers. Having those lab numbers and graphs is therefore valuable in comparison.

I'm sure you know this, just trying to bridge what seems to be a communication gap here.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

At no point have I disputed the "accuracy" of those graphs. I have simply tried to establish that other than on paper they mean very little. They are in no way showing what the actual car is putting out and are very strictly aligned to labratory test conditions not real life. They have to be 100% accurate to the measuring standard or can not be certified or claimed.
Yes I would asumme that though the power to the wheels will suffer the standard 15% to 20% loss in HP and torque that every other normal production car suffers so that would indeed still make it 15% or so more powerful than the old engine but weirder things have happened. Was pretty clear that it is not probable nor likly but not impossible.

Now I want depleted uranium wheels just to say I have them!

You are correct that no manufacturers HP/TQ numbers are accurate in the real world. But it is useful to compare the standard test runs between different cars and use our experience to heuristically estimate what that means in the real world. The comparison is what has value here, not the real world numbers. Having those lab numbers and graphs is therefore valuable in comparison.

I'm sure you know this, just trying to bridge what seems to be a communication gap here.

Also, lol that would be fun to say for sure, then you would really get an earful on here.