Steering!

[OldBiker]

From Car and Driver: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...mponents-2023/


"Supercar maker McLaren sticks with electrohydraulic power steering to maximize feedback and feel. Then again, the best electrically assisted racks, such as those in the Porsche 911 GT3 RS and Cayman GT4 RS or the Subaru BRZ/Toyota GR86, are getting pretty darn close."


Now maybe a little more power and an engine that does NOT die of oil starvation and RTV ingestion :-) (PS: Happy new year!)

[dave99rt]

Originally Posted by OldBiker

Now maybe a little more power and an engine that does NOT die of oil starvation and RTV ingestion :-) (PS: Happy new year!)

Why do these cars need more power?

The average buyer can't handle the power of the current and previous generations.

[HKz]

As always tis a slippery slope...making the twins into a numbers car is dumb, there are many other cars out there that do that better. Twins best enjoyed as relatively low HP car as consumables are affordable and car is more than reliable.. rtv problems much like early valve spring issues are all blown out of proportion..

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by OldBiker

"...Then again, the best electrically assisted racks, such as those in the Porsche 911 GT3 RS and Cayman GT4 RS or the Subaru BRZ/Toyota GR86, are getting pretty darn close."

The Twins' steering was always lauded as one of the best EPS units from any manufacturer, so this is not a new sentiment from Car and Driver. Still, nice to hear this repeated in such lofty company of McLarens and top-trim Prosches.

[ZDan]

NGL, I wasn't too disappointed in the zero-feel but super-quick and *precise* steering of my '01 AP1 S2000, coming from a MAX-feel high-effort *slow* manual rack in my 240Z. 2017 BRZ's steering was just about perfect. '23 loses a bit of feel and also the EPS gives up at some corners at some tracks, curious that they had fixed that in gen-1 but then the issue came back for gen-2...

I think the hydraulic vs. electric is not a big deal. I actually preferred the quicker and more linear in the 981 Cayman electric steering vs. my 987's hydraulic steering which was on the slow side and I really didn't like the nonlinearity between ~45-60 degrees at the steering wheel. Everybody lauded those last Porsches with hydraulic as having the best steering ever but I never got used to it, greatly preferred my '17 BRZ's steering on road and track when I was comparing the two in 2019. After a year's comparison on road and track I sold the Porsche and kept the BRZ...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by dave99rt

Why do these cars need more power?

To go faster (at the track...). Power bump from 205hp 1st-gen to 228hp (really more like 240-245hp) 2nd-gen was hugely beneficial to lap times for me

Originally Posted by HKz

rtv problems much like early valve spring issues are all blown out of proportion..

I don't think rtv issues are blown out of proportion. A certain percentage of these cars will have enough excess rtv to block the oil pickup. Buddy of mine lost his '17's (I think? later gen-1 anyway) engine at the track in '22, took it apart and sure enough, pickup clogged with rtv...
I had my new '23 inspected at dealership, they found rtv, removed it, and warranteed the work. Worth doing. Still concerned about pressure drop in right-handers though :concern:

[Ernest72]

Love the steering in my 16BRZ and 14 981 cayman. On the cayman we changed the steering to the GT3 with PIWIS and it’s much better than stock. More feeling and livelier.

[OldBiker]

Originally Posted by ZDan

To go faster (at the track...). Power bump from 205hp 1st-gen to 228hp (really more like 240-245hp) 2nd-gen ...

Are you basing the 240-245 (flywheel) number on what various folks were measuring at the wheels? I was thinking the same myself, but wasn't sure if the quoted wheel dynos were calibrated... and why would Subaru under-rate their engine?

On the steering front, and not to counter my own post, I have to compare the BRZ steering with the 2008 Z4 MCoupe that I briefly had (and hated)! The car itself was a joke; tiny wheelbase, wide tires, no suspension, and far far back seating position made you feel it was about to swap ends on any corners with the slightest bump. But the hydraulic steering was amazing... so much feel and feedback. (Engine was good too... although the shifter was very rubbery.)

My 23 BRZ steering does not give that immediate feedback at the wheel, but the car doesn't need it either... it handles so much better, especially on imperfect roads. I can drive the BRZ much faster on deserted canyon roads, and the limiting factor is logic not terror. Still nice to know the steering can compete with cars that cost 10x as much!

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by OldBiker

Are you basing the 240-245 (flywheel) number on what various folks were measuring at the wheels? I was thinking the same myself, but wasn't sure if the quoted wheel dynos were calibrated... and why would Subaru under-rate their engine?

Basing the real gain on 1/4-mile trap speeds. Trap speed scales with the cube root of power. Multiple C and D road tests had the old car at 95mph, multiple tests of new car have it at 101mph.
205hp * (101/95)^3 = 246hp

Or using the tried and true hp/trap speed equation, hp = (trapspeed/234)^3 * weight,
1st-gen: (95/234)^3 * (2800 + 175) = 199hp
2nd-gen: (101/234)^3 * (2840 + 175) = 242hp

Or basing it off of dyno results of 212.5 rwhp (210-215), scaling by 1/0.87 = 244hp, vs. my old car dynoed at 179rwhp, /0.87 = 206hp

Dunno why they underrated the new car, but all evidence indicates they did! I picked up 5mph on the straights at most of the tracks I go to this past year with the new car vs. my old '17. At Watkins Glen I picked up +10mph (130mph vs 120mph) day one of event there! I think we had a tailwind though, on day two it was only +7mph...

For sure the new car is a LOT faster than 228hp vs. 205hp would suggest...

On the steering front, and not to counter my own post, I have to compare the BRZ steering with the 2008 Z4 MCoupe that I briefly had (and hated)! The car itself was a joke; tiny wheelbase, wide tires, no suspension, and far far back seating position made you feel it was about to swap ends on any corners with the slightest bump.

Ha! Short wheelbase and way way aft seating position just in front of the rear tires are some of the things I really miss about the old 240Z! I almost got an ND2 to replace my '17 BRZ for this reason and much lighter weight. But as only car needed *some* practicality and BRZ is station-wagon compared to Miata!

But the hydraulic steering was amazing... so much feel and feedback. (Engine was good too... although the shifter was very rubbery.)

Reportedly BMW have lost the plot on steering feel since then...

My 23 BRZ steering does not give that immediate feedback at the wheel, but the car doesn't need it either... it handles so much better, especially on imperfect roads. I can drive the BRZ much faster on deserted canyon roads, and the limiting factor is logic not terror. Still nice to know the steering can compete with cars that cost 10x as much!

Hell yeh! Prefer the last-gen's over my '23, but still prefer new BRZ's steering over my old highly-lauded 987 Cayman...

[HKz]

Originally Posted by ZDan

To go faster (at the track...). Power bump from 205hp 1st-gen to 228hp (really more like 240-245hp) 2nd-gen was hugely beneficial to lap times for me


I don't think rtv issues are blown out of proportion. A certain percentage of these cars will have enough excess rtv to block the oil pickup. Buddy of mine lost his '17's (I think? later gen-1 anyway) engine at the track in '22, took it apart and sure enough, pickup clogged with rtv...
I had my new '23 inspected at dealership, they found rtv, removed it, and warranteed the work. Worth doing. Still concerned about pressure drop in right-handers though :concern:

What percentage are we talking about...? And I want to know how many failures due to RTV were after street driving. From everything I have seen, usually it is the supposed RTV issue PLUS tracking which to me brings many other factors into play.. I agree, if you are going to be doing any serious driving, probably best to check and to watch temps/pressure but for normal 99% street drivers, I don't believe these are problems to get hung up over. There are certainly many worse quality engines for the price we are paying for the twins..

[WNDSRFR]

So, have they replaced the EPS motor coupler or do they still use the same one on the original? The one that's guaranteed to fail and cause a mind numbing rattle. Mine has gotten so bad I have play in my steering. I have the new part but I'm afraid if I take it apart, I won't be able to put it back together again.

Also, is it just me or has the server for this forum gotten terribly intermittent lately?

[HKz]

New posts hasn't worked for me in a long time

[Desertnate]

Originally Posted by dave99rt

Why do these cars need more power?

The average buyer can't handle the power of the current and previous generations.

While I agree the car has plenty of power for what it is, I'd also like a bit more so I can put a little more day light between myself and the massive tail-gating pick up trucks I can't seem to outrun down the on ramps.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by Desertnate

While I agree the car has plenty of power for what it is, I'd also like a bit more so I can put a little more day light between myself and the massive tail-gating pick up trucks I can't seem to outrun down the on ramps.

meh even if they give you more, you're still gonna get spanked lol. the 300 in my GRC is still nothing when I come up against something with displacement on ramps are almost always drag races here in az so feel like ive been spanked a bunch