COVID Developments and News

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Ultra.. I enjoy your sense of humor and most of your posts over the years. This isn't personal at all. You made a suggestion, charging only unvaccinated people for all covid-related care, that just didn't make sense to me, and I pointed out why it struck me that way. That's not whining.. just making a logical observation. You're doing the same thing.. pointing out that you don't think it's fair for people to choose not to get the vaccine. You're entitled to your opinion, and I don't consider it whining. What's the difference?

I don't know if the solution that seems to be sought... absolutely 100% protection from Covid, no suffering, no death.. is out there. Vaccinated people are suffering, too, and inarguably some of the responses we've tried in our quest to control covid have caused some fairly universal suffering.

I don't know the solution that works for everyone. I wish I did. I'm sorry.

The bolded is something everyone seems to keep dodging and then that's when we get the fall back of "mah rights!" or gaslighting, or some other blame game instead of coming up with something. The only solution that works for everyone is the one that no one likes; or that does not exist.

At this point, we have two choices: get the vaccine, shut our mouths and accept it. OR. Make it a choice and see how long this shit prolongs and shut our mouths.

We've been doing the latter and it's clearly not working. In any country; not just the US of A.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Maybe I misinterpreted what Ultra was suggesting. He wrote, "Charge the unvaccinated full price for all covid medical care." I took that to mean, ALL Covid medical care... for vaccinated and unvaccinated patients alike, or in other words, for unvaccinated people to shoulder the burden of ALL Covid expenses for all people. That was what I was questioning. That's even worse than mandates...

In this case mandates are likely a good thing, so I don't really know where this leaves the discussion.
I gather you think they're a bad idea. I'm not a fan, but in this instance the data, as well as my experience (such as it is) with behavioral science suggests it will help move us closer to that place we'd all love to get: a place where every day life isn't constantly being pushed around by the virus.
It still boggles the mind that some of our most "me first" people aren't signing up for 11x less likely to die, 10x less likely to be hospitalized, from a virus that I expect we'll all end up catching eventually... Unless we find an even better vaccine variant, but that'll still only work if people take care of themselves.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Man, I am at a loss. Ok.. what DID you mean? How should I have interpreted what you wrote?

Seriously? I almost went back and clarified my original suggestion but then said to myself "No. There's nothing wrong with it.

Reversing our roles, the leap of twisted logic it would take for me to interpret it the way you did is ... I don't know, just bizarre. Are you looking for a reason to disagree? Do you actually think I'm an idiot?

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Seriously? I almost went back and clarified my original suggestion but then said to myself "No. There's nothing wrong with it.

Reversing our roles, the leap of twisted logic it would take for me to interpret it the way you did is ... I don't know, just bizarre. Are you looking for a reason to disagree? Do you actually think I'm an idiot?

In order, from your first question to your last..

Yes, No, No.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

In order, from your first question to your last..

Yes, No, No.

There were only two questions. Oh, nvm. Ok... No, that's not what I meant. Now, can you improve on my suggestion?

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

There were only two questions.

I counted "seriously?" as a question. Yes, I really did think you meant that unvaccinated people should cover the full price of all covid-related costs. Seriously (and no sarcasm meant by using that term), that's how I read the statement you made, and that's why I replied.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

I counted "seriously?" as a question. Yes, I really did think you meant that unvaccinated people should cover the full price of all covid-related costs. Seriously (and no sarcasm meant by using that term), that's how I read the statement you made, and that's why I replied.

I know... I went back and counted again. That was kinda funny, actually.

[Ultramaroon]

Ok, so, We're all good with charging the willfully unvaccinated full price for their own hospital stays?


Let's build on that.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Ok, so, We're all good with charging the willfully unvaccinated full price for their own hospital stays?


Let's build on that.

Frankly at this point, I'm totally fine with it. I don't want my tax $ going towards other people's preventable stupidity. Albeit they kinda already do, but yes, charge them!

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by weederr33

Frankly at this point, I'm totally fine with it. I don't want my tax $ going towards other people's preventable stupidity. Albeit they kinda already do, but yes, charge them!

If I've been reading correctly, hospitals get gubment money for treating covid, which isn't as much as they would otherwise make.


Same people whining about having to take the vaccine are those whining about mean-ole socialist health care. Fuck it. Private insurance be like...

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Ok, so, We're all good with charging the willfully unvaccinated full price for their own hospital stays?


Let's build on that.

In order to do that in a just fashion, we have to assume the following..

1. The willfully unvaccinated people in the hospital took no other measures to protect themselves.
2. They were not infected by someone who had been vaccinated despite those precautions.

In many cases, neither of those are true.

I do understand what you're getting at, and in some ways it makes sense, but then don't we have to ask ourselves, whether through taxation or increased insurance costs, why should we pay for motorcycle riders who sustain serious head injuries because they choose to ride without a helmet? Heart surgeries or diabetes treatments for chronically obese people? Cancer treatments for smokers? Offshore rescues of people who have no business being offshore? The list goes on and on.

If the vaccine was an almost for-sure guarantee that a vaccinated person was no longer capable of infecting others, then you would have a very strong case. However, the more data we gather as time rolls on indicates the the greatest boon to the vaccine is, like better diets, wearing helmets, getting serious experience before heading offshore, etc., ... personal benefit in the form of lessened health difficulties from the vaccine. Yes, that is also a benefit to society in terms of decreased load on the health care system, hospitals, costs, etc., but that's true of all preventative care, most of which is not mandated. The vaccine(s) has/have been increasingly shown to allow the vaccinated to become infected (at yes, a lower rate.. not arguing that) and carrying a similar viral load (at the same rate when infected) that can be transferred to others.

If we decide to charge full price for health care, cash-on-the-barrelhead and no insurance coverage, to non-vaccinated people, we are really talking about the absolute antithesis to any form of socialized health care; we would all pay for our care as we need it, caused by our own decisions. Some vaccinated people will need the very same health care, and some vaccinated people will have caused unvaccinated people to need that health care.

There really isn't anyway to make this simple and easy. The vaccine makes sense, and everyone without true underlying medical reasons who can get it safely should. However, it's not analogous to the various other vaccines that are mandated (at least to attend public school).. measles, small pox, polio, etc.. because it doesn't prevent the spread of the disease as those true vaccines do, and it isn't long-lasting like those other vaccines are. In function, it seems to act more like a flu shot.. it's effect is short-lived, meant to combat a seasonal threat, and protect the person receiving the vaccine more than those around them. Exceptions granted and noted, as previously, for the additional benefits of keeping people out of hospitals and overloading the system.

Despite the vehemence in some posts, I still do not think we are all that far apart. I just can't see this as an absolute.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

In order to do that in a just fashion, we have to assume the following..

1. The willfully unvaccinated people in the hospital took no other measures to protect themselves.
2. They were not infected by someone who had been vaccinated despite those precautions.

What? No. We don't have to assume shit. "Yay, you made it! I see here that you weren't vaccinated. Here's your bill. Have a nice day."

I do understand what you're getting at, and in some ways it makes sense, but then don't we have to ask ourselves, whether through taxation or increased insurance costs, why should we pay for motorcycle riders who sustain serious head injuries because they choose to ride without a helmet? Heart surgeries or diabetes treatments for chronically obese people? Cancer treatments for smokers? Offshore rescues of people who have no business being offshore? The list goes on and on.

Nope, we don't have to ask ourselves any of that. Shortest route out of this shit storm is full vaccination now. Last year would've been way better but we pissed away that opportunity. Now suck it up and incentivize the fuck out of getting vaccinated.

If the vaccine was an almost for-sure guarantee that a vaccinated person was no longer capable of infecting others, then you would have a very strong case. However, the more data we gather as time rolls on indicates the the greatest boon to the vaccine is, like better diets, wearing helmets, getting serious experience before heading offshore, etc., ... personal benefit in the form of lessened health difficulties from the vaccine. Yes, that is also a benefit to society in terms of decreased load on the health care system, hospitals, costs, etc., but that's true of all preventative care, most of which is not mandated. The vaccine(s) has/have been increasingly shown to allow the vaccinated to become infected (at yes, a lower rate.. not arguing that) and carrying a similar viral load (at the same rate when infected) that can be transferred to others.

If we decide to charge full price for health care, cash-on-the-barrelhead and no insurance coverage, to non-vaccinated people, we are really talking about the absolute antithesis to any form of socialized health care; we would all pay for our care as we need it, caused by our own decisions. Some vaccinated people will need the very same health care, and some vaccinated people will have caused unvaccinated people to need that health care.

There really isn't anyway to make this simple and easy. The vaccine makes sense, and everyone without true underlying medical reasons who can get it safely should. However, it's not analogous to the various other vaccines that are mandated (at least to attend public school).. measles, small pox, polio, etc.. because it doesn't prevent the spread of the disease as those true vaccines do, and it isn't long-lasting like those other vaccines are. In function, it seems to act more like a flu shot.. it's effect is short-lived, meant to combat a seasonal threat, and protect the person receiving the vaccine more than those around them. Exceptions granted and noted, as previously, for the additional benefits of keeping people out of hospitals and overloading the system.

Despite the vehemence in some posts, I still do not think we are all that far apart. I just can't see this as an absolute.

Then come up with a better idea instead of whining about why we can't dooo thiiiis... oh, it's not the saaame thiiing.. Bullshit. It's been the best fucking option since smart people cooked up the first batch of that sauce.

Part of the solution, or part of the problem. Bring something we can use.

[MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires]

ahh yeah, the best solution by a real genius: make the healthcare system even more cruel to punish a certain segment of the population.

if these people dont care about dying from covid why do you think would care about being stuck with an even larger bill for hospital treatment?

Originally Posted by Spuds

This is sarcasm right? You need a or people will think you are serious.

of course it is sarcasm, i was directly cribbing unironic posts from pilot who seems to sincerely believe that

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Charge the unvaccinated full price for all covid medical care.

I saw this and was about to reply that it opens the door to people being offended and complaining, but then I saw two more pages and read that.

Anyway you need to spin it as a benefit rather than a punishment. "You can save money on your insurance if you are vaccinated" vs "You have to pay more for insurance if you are unvaccinated", for example.

So for your proposal, it would be insurance drops coverage for all COVID-19 related illness for everyone. You then create a separate, mandatory plan just for covid care, which waives the fee if you are vaccinated, and opt-in everyone by default. Essentially this results in the unvaccinated paying into a covid pot which everyone draws from, including the vaccinated should they require care. Since 90+% of the care is delivered to unvaccinated people, it should be economically feasible. In that way, it is a benefit to be vaccinated, as opposed to a punishment to be unvaccinated.