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Old 08-18-2021, 05:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dzmitry View Post
Wow these look amazing! Do you happen to know how much they weigh? Could be on my future wheels list, love them.
They are 17 lbs. per wheel, which I verified by weighing them myself when I bought them for my last car. I didn't bother this time around...

They're also pretty inexpensive - we paid less than $900 Canadian shipped for the set.

EDIT: Ultimately, I'm going to get 18's with the same wheels - either 18x8" ET40 with 225/40R-18's or 18x9" ET40 with 255/35R-18's. That will be WAY down the road though. More suspension work and possibly supercharging will happen before that.
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Old 08-18-2021, 05:53 PM   #30
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One small update for today: finally got camber bolts in and alignment done. Max negative camber they could achieve in the front with just the camber bolts was -1.0 on the left and -1.2 on the right. Also had the toe set as close to zero as the tech was able.

A quick blast down my favourite local road afterward (a couple of times...LOL!) confirmed that the balance and feel is better with added negative camber and the new wheels (due to wider track from the lower offset, plus lighter weight and wider rim letting the tires sit a bit better). Definitely more neutral. The reduced wheel offset also feels like it has increased the steering weight and self-centering a bit, which is good for me.

Still a long way to go to get to where I want it, but it's progress! Next up may be struts and springs or coilovers, but that will be a few months away at least.
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Old 08-19-2021, 08:14 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatsu333 View Post
They are 17 lbs. per wheel, which I verified by weighing them myself when I bought them for my last car. I didn't bother this time around...

They're also pretty inexpensive - we paid less than $900 Canadian shipped for the set.

EDIT: Ultimately, I'm going to get 18's with the same wheels - either 18x8" ET40 with 225/40R-18's or 18x9" ET40 with 255/35R-18's. That will be WAY down the road though. More suspension work and possibly supercharging will happen before that.
Holy cow, absolutely at the top of my list now. I ended up with the Konig Hypergrams a couple years back that were also well setup. Flow formed, around 18lbs per wheel at 18x8.5 for about $830. But those were the best I could find at the time after tons of research on wheels that clear the Brembo's.

In any case, congrats on the wheels, they look great.
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Old 10-26-2021, 10:16 PM   #32
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If anyone wants to chime in with their opinion on the coilover choices, I'd welcome any feedback / suggestions!
I would go with coilovers only if I wanted adjustability on a race track. Otherwise, it doesn't worth it and they have some disadvantages with corrosion no matter what the manufacturers are saying.

The only good option I am aware is the Bilstein B6 with lowering springs (check in forum about spring suggestions) or if you are more flexible with cost and shipping from Japan the STI Bilstein suspension:

https://www.sti.jp/parts/subarubrz_zc/suspension/
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Old 10-31-2021, 12:16 PM   #33
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To me 3 options come to mind:

CSG flex As
RCE SS-1s
Amex suspension fast roads.

I run RCE's. Soft settings were better than the 17 OEM dampers and these are regarded as the softest of the OEMs dampers. On track they are great with no aero and 200tw tires but this is there limit

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Old 11-16-2021, 06:43 PM   #34
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Latest mod installed today - MCA Traction Mod:



Installing on jack stands in my garage was not super fun...LOL.

Also, if you ever do this mod, do yourself a favour and do ONE SIDE AT A TIME. I.E. do EVERYTHING on the one side, then start the other. Trust me.

Haven't had a chance to really push it in the twisties yet (my favourite roads are currently cut off by flooding due to heavy rains over the last few days), but I took it through some of the spots around town where I've had some code brown moments with the back snapping out mid-corner and my first impressions are that it does what it says on the tin - puts the power down much better through corners and particularly bumpy corners.

Before, it felt twitchy and would snap into oversteer when the outside rear loaded up suddenly and the diff would shunt the power to that wheel, but now it's WAY more planted.

Helical diffs on FWD are friggin magic - when the outside wheel loads up, it just shunts torque to that wheel, tucks in and drives the front end around the corner. I installed a Quaife diff in my Tiburon, and it was insane how well it could put power down in corners.

With the BRZ's stock behaviour, I was having my doubts whether the same type of diff made sense in a RWD car. With this mod, I feel like it more progressively loads the outside wheel, making the diff behave better. The car feels like it has more of the balance it should have had from the factory as a proper sports car.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED MOD, for sure!
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Old 11-23-2021, 11:36 AM   #35
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Just have to say, the more I drive the car with the MCA Traction Mod installed, the more impressed I am with the change in behaviour.

It's funny, because the way I'd describe it is the same as some comments from tests / reviews I've read about the 2nd generation - it feels more like a proper sports car now. Less nervous, more settled. More "performance-oriented".

I wonder if the anti-squat geometry in the 2nd gen has also been changed...?
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Old 11-23-2021, 05:42 PM   #36
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I don't think it has. Most of the chassis is carryover including geometry and parts. Definitely following your build as I also have Fast wheels (FC01), Pedders top hats, MCA traction mod and a 2020 BRZ ( crystal black base).
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Old 12-01-2021, 05:34 PM   #37
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Trying to NOT spend money on a swap or supercharger...LOL (Part 1)

***NOTE*** Nobody else will likely be much interested in how various power options on our cars theoretically compare with a 16 year-old, FWD V6 Hyundai, regardless of how dialed in the car was - I get that.

This long-winded, multi-part post is mainly for my benefit in putting my thought process down in writing for more clarity on my decisions, but I thought some folks might find the comparison among the different options useful.

Some folks just want their cars to be as fast and powerful as possible. After 14+ years with my last car, tweaking and fine tuning to get it as dialed in as possible before finally getting it "perfect" about two years before selling it to buy my BRZ, and my past 9 months' experience with the BRZ in stock form, my goals are a bit different.

See, my Tiburon was not all-out "fast" in a straight line (it was pretty much as fast as an NA V6 Tiburon could get), but with how it was set up it was FAST on my favourite local twisty roads. It had the grip and balance to carry good speed through the corners, the traction and torque to pull strongly out of them with the Quaife diff letting me put the power down way earlier on exit than you'd expect from a torquey FWD car, and was also perfectly suited to dealing with around-town traffic with that same torque and traction pairing. It was a car that put a BIG smile on my face every time I hustled it down one of those roads.

When buying my BRZ, I also shopped the Hyundai Veloster N. The N would have been my Tiburon turned up several notches thanks to the turbo powerplant, factory tuning and decade+ newer technology. It would have been MUCH faster than the BRZ and would have required very little work to be even faster still...but it would have been more of the same, and the low-slung style and potentially "perfect" RWD balance of the BRZ had been drawing my eye ever since they came out for the 2013 model year.

So, I took the plunge, knowing the BRZ would be a frustrating dichotomy for me in stock form. Gorgeous, low-slung "proper" sports car proportions, decent stock handling balance with the potential for greatness, but frustratingly weak in the middle of the power band, and not particularly nice-sounding in the upper rpms.

After buying it and driving it I also discovered, to my dismay, that the traction even at stock power levels on the frequently wet and relatively poorly surfaced roads around here was honestly pretty terrible (even though I had swapped over the tires I had from my Tiburon, which had NO traction issues), and worse, it was quite erratic in its behaviour, snapping into oversteer with little warning or consistency when trying to power out of a corner unless I was pretty damn near straight already, even on dry pavement. It got to where I was not really enjoying the car because I was always worried about the back end snapping loose if I drove with anything more than grandmama enthusiasm.

I know I've already posted about it a couple of times now, but the MCA Traction Mod has honestly transformed the car on that latter front, and I'm now MUCH more confident that the car will respond predictably. It will still oversteer if you're more exuberant with the throttle pedal in the lower gears while turning tightly (E.G. 1st gear left turn from a stop sign), but you can put the power down MUCH earlier through corners and expect the car to react pretty much the same every time.

I'm absolutely convinced, knowing how the "torque sensing" helical differential is designed to work and feeling the difference without and with it in my Tiburon, that what was happening in stock form was that the anti-squat geometry was causing very sharp, sudden loading of the outside rear wheel, which in turn was causing the diff to shunt power suddenly to the outside wheel (because it suddenly had more traction), driving that outside wheel HARD, causing the snap oversteer.

With the MCA Traction Mod installed, it feels like the rear springs and dampers are being allowed to work properly to manage the loading more progressively, thereby letting the diff work more smoothly, making the traction, balance and predictability better and VASTLY improving the car.

If it weren't for the unsightly fender gap and the fact that I want the flexible V-bars and flexible draw stiffener (because STI...LOL), I'd almost be happy to leave the rest of the suspension alone at this point and just work on alignment tweaks to achieve the handling balance I want, but that fender gap...YUCK. Either ST XA or KW V3 coilovers will be in order at some point down the road for lower ride height and to allow some fine tuning with damping adjustments.

All that long-winded novel of a backstory to say that I've spent a lot of time lately looking at the options for more power out of my BRZ. The experience of having to baby the car around every corner pre-Traction Mod, coupled with the fact that I got so much joy out of driving my Tiburon even though it wasn't capital-F "Fast" has made my priorities a bit different.

I want more power, but not too much. As esoteric a goal as it may be considering how different the two cars are, I want it to feel kind of like how my Tiburon felt power-wise, but not a whole lot more.

I also don't relish the prospect of spending several thousand dollars for the "easy fix" of supercharging, and with my plan being to keep this car a LONG time, the more mechanically simple I keep things, the better (I bought my Tiburon new in 2006 and drove it until February 2021, so 10-15 years in this car is certainly possible).

The release of the 2nd generation BRZ has definitely played a role in making it a more urgent priority, with reviewers mostly raving about how the extra torque and power from the 2.4L motor has "transformed" the car, and that much extra seems pretty perfect to me. Almost to where I briefly considered the idea of trading in my car for a 2nd gen, but I just can't get over the looks of the new car. I actually quite like the front end, but overall it just doesn't seem as cohesive a design, the fender vent area looks tacked on, I absolutely HATE the undercut sides, the rear end is really generic and meh...basically, I don't find it at all attractive in the same way as the 1st gen, so that idea is out.

So, on to the options...
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Old 12-01-2021, 05:36 PM   #38
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Trying to NOT spend money on a swap or supercharger...LOL (Part 2)

For various reasons (wanting a reliable solution with a very OEM look, maintaining cats in both stock locations for emissions, and a wife-friendly sound), I had narrowed my choices down to staying NA with an HKS catted header, doing an FA24 block swap (if possible - I'm watching Opie's swap thread closely to see how it goes), or supercharging with either the HKS GT2 or Harrop kits (probably in conjunction with the HKS catted header).

So, I nerded out a bit (OK - a LOT) on torque curves with the various different power-adding options, spending lots of time looking at posted dynos from different sources to map out as best I can the comparative curves in one Excel spreadsheet and charting them visually vs the lone dyno I have of my Tiburon (which was before I spent 2-3 years tweaking the tune on it almost daily which greatly improved the top-end power, so I took those dyno numbers and guesstimated the values from 5500 rpm up).

I also added in the ACE A350 header, since that was what my original plan for the car was before I bought it and I wanted to see where that or the similar JDL EL 4-2-1 with over-pipe would fall, and I also estimated numbers for a 2.4L block swap by adding 10% to the FA20 numbers. I also did the same with the FA20/HKS Header numbers to get an idea of where they'd be as well with the extra displacement.

Why not use an actual FA24 dyno plot, and why only 10% for a 20% bump in displacement? The curve won't be the same as an FA24 due to retaining the FA20 heads, cams, intake and exhaust manifolds, etc. It also won't simply be 20% more due to the 20% displacement bump since the heads and pistons won't be "optimized" for each other like a factory setup, which is particularly a sensitive point with direct injection, so I'm being pessimistic with the projections. I would hope the gains would be closer to double what I've plotted and that the torque dip wouldn't be as severe, but I'm looking at worst-case (other than the swap not working at all). I also just couldn't find a dyno for a 2022 BRZ/GR86 from a Dynojet and tuner whose results I would trust.

Finally, I also took into account the weight of the vehicle with each option (including adding 75 pounds for the HKS GT2 kit, 125 pounds for the Harrop kit, and 150 pounds for the Tiburon), and also plotted them out vs. the gearing differences between the Tiburon and the BRZ in 3rd and 6th gears.

Up next are the charts, and my thoughts on each of them.
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Old 12-01-2021, 05:42 PM   #39
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Trying to NOT spend money on a swap or supercharger...LOL (Part 3)

Raw Torque (to the wheels) Chart



Torque Per Ton (2000 lbs.) Curb Weight Chart



These two are just the raw torque numbers, and the raw torque per ton of curb weight. No surprise, the stock BRZ is WAY below the 2.7L V6 Tiburon on raw numbers until the very upper reaches of the rev range.

With weight taken into account, it pretty much agrees with my seat-of-the-pants feel comparing the stock BRZ and the Tiburon as they pull through the revs - it feels pretty close until the BRZ hits the torque dip at 3250 rpm, and then from there until about 6000 rpm the Tiburon just crushes it.

A bit disappointing to see that even the unicorn ACE A350 header falls behind the Tiburon from 4000-5750 rpm, but should feel much stronger than the Tiburon above and below that range.

Other than at the very bottom of the rev range (where my estimated numbers could be WAY off), the 2.4L swap numbers pretty closely match the FA20/HKS header's, staying close to the Tiburon below 3500 rpm, then falling significantly behind from there to 5500 to 5750 rpm or so.

The 2.4L Swap HKS Header gets really interesting, as it is within striking distance of the superchargers below 3000 rpm, and MUCH stronger than the Tiburon pretty much everywhere except giving up a tiny bit from 3750-4250 rpm.

Aside from the very low revs with the 2.4L swaps, the superchargers, as expected, obliterate the other options everywhere.

On to the charts adjusted for gearing vs. the Tiburon - this is where most of you will likely not care about the comparison anymore...LOL
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Old 12-01-2021, 05:44 PM   #40
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Trying to NOT spend money on a swap or supercharger...LOL (Part 4)

6th Gear Adjusted Torque Per Ton Chart



I chose to look at torque in 6th gear to get a feel for how freeway overtaking WITHOUT downshifting would be. This was pretty easily accomplished in the Tiburon, but can be a bit of a chore in the BRZ because I'm cruising right at the start of the torque dip at 120 km/h.

This is the gear where the two cars' gearing is closest, with the Tiburon's 6th gear only being 6.4% taller, so there's not a lot of gearing advantage for the BRZ to make up ground.

I looked at the relative curves, taking into account the rpm in gear for each car dropping as low as 100 km/h and pulling as high as 140 km/h (the Tiburon would be 200-300 rpm lower for any given speed due to the taller gearing).

For a 6th gear overtake, even the stock BRZ is stronger than the Tiburon initially. Stock falls behind the Tiburon at about 123 km/h, but all the other options are good to 140 km/h (though the HKS Header or the "stock" 2.4L Swap will just barely keep ahead, and won't *feel* great because they're falling into the dip through that pull).

The ACE header would feel MUCH stronger than the Tiburon when overtaking, and in fact everywhere in 6th gear aside from a slight dip below the Tiburon from 5000-5500 rpm. This is thanks to the "torque bump" it has in place of the stock dip and the gearing advantage. From what I gather, a JDL 4-2-1 EL with over-pipe wouldn't be quite as strong in the dip area, but wouldn't be far off, and might be a bit stronger from 5000 rpm on up, so that kind of piqued my interest in those options again - maybe I just have to get my head around not having a primary cat, which I was kind of set on keeping...?

The 2.4L Swap HKS Header combo would handily beat the Tiburon everywhere in 6th gear, as would both supercharger options.
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Old 12-01-2021, 05:48 PM   #41
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Trying to NOT spend money on a swap or supercharger...LOL (Part 5)

3rd Gear Adjusted Torque Per Ton Chart



Now looking at 3rd gear because that's where I usually am if I'm wanting to hustle a bit through in-town traffic, and it's also the gear I'm mostly in on my favourite twisty roads, as it was in my Tiburon. It's also where I usually do freeway on-ramps, pulling from around 70 km/h or so up to 120 km/h.

This is one of the gears where the BRZ has the biggest gearing advantage over the Tiburon, with the Tiburon being 12.5% taller (5th gear is the only one taller, at 12.9% taller than the BRZ). 3rd gear performance is a pretty big deal for me, all things considered.

Again, when looking at the charts, remember the Tiburon will be 300-500 rpm lower in the powerband for any given speed in 3rd.

I generally cruise around town at about 70 km/h, which is 10-20 km/h over the posted limits (for what it's worth for those judging my speeding habit, I haven't had a ticket in over 20 years, and I ALWAYS slow down to the limit for playground and school zones). When working through traffic, speeds may yo-yo back and forth between about 40 km/h and 70 km/h, so that range is important. On my favourite twisty roads, it'll be as low as 40 and as high as 90.

So first, the bad news - stock BRZ vs Tiburon.

The stock BRZ kind of falls on its face as you pull through the 60 km/h mark in 3rd, as it dives deep into the torque dip. This makes any deviation below my usual 70 km/h around town feel pretty painful as I try to recover speed, even though objectively it should be stronger than the Tiburon up to that point according to the chart. Subjectively, from about 50 km/h on up it just feels kind of flat.

At 70 km/h, the stock BRZ is at rock bottom, so it actually feels like it pulls OK from there on up because the torque is increasing as revs build. Because of this, freeway on-ramps don't feel too bad, but they are actually slower than I was in the Tiburon because they're starting from a much weaker starting point and torque isn't increasing as quickly and stays below the Tiburon until we're already at freeway speeds.

From about 63-96 km/h in 3rd, it is WAY behind the Tiburon, which explains how unsatisfying it is for me on my favourite roads in stock form. If I can manage to carry more speed into and through the corners to stay in the 70-90 km/h range, it would probably feel OK but would still actually be slower, similar to the freeway on-ramp scenario.

Now the good news - EVERY modded option is better than the Tiburon in 3rd gear pretty much everywhere.

Only the HKS Header and "stock" 2.4L swap fall slightly behind the Tiburon's curve from 3750-4250 rpm. When you account for the difference in rpm at various speeds due to gearing, those options are still better than the Tiburon at any road speed in 3rd.

With that in mind, it goes without saying that an ACE header, 2.4L Swap with HKS Header or either of the supercharger options would absolutely destroy my old Tiburon at any speed in 3rd gear.
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Old 12-01-2021, 05:54 PM   #42
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Trying to NOT spend money on a swap or supercharger...LOL (Part 6)

So, let's summarize my findings and current thoughts.

All things considered and cost-no-object, my ideal would be a 2.4L swap with the HKS catted header. I'd get the best of all worlds - the mechanical simplicity of staying NA, the large torque increase from the displacement bump, and the enviro/wife friendliness of a catted header.

However, the only way I could see pulling it off properly without a HUGE amount of downtime on my daily driver (which would also very much anger my wife) would be to buy a complete FA20 long block from a wrecked 2017+ BRZ and a new FA24D complete short block from Subaru. A piston from each block would be sent off to Wiseco or Ross as samples to have custom forged pistons made to fit the 94 mm bore but preserve the dome shape and valve relief positions of the FA20 piston, all while maintaining the stock 12.5:1 compression ratio. The donor FA20 heads would be sent off to a shop somewhere to at least have the combustion chambers enlarged to the 94mm bore, and possibly to have larger valves fitted as well for better top-end breathing (possibly intake valves only). Then once all the pieces are back together, it would be swapped over. This all presumes that the FA24D block can even be mounted into the 1st gen chassis - Subaru/Toyota's notes for the new car say "...the engine mount attachment points have been moved from the cylinder block..", so that's not a sure thing.

Again, I'm watching Opie's post on his crack at the swap with great interest, but even best case scenario, I think the cost and complexity of doing the swap right (for me) will be WAY too high to justify it. It would potentially be thousands of dollars more expensive than either of the supercharger kits for less total output.

If only you could just bolt in a complete FA24D, plug-and-play...ahh, the dream...

Dreaming aside, the two most promising things for me are the relative performance in 3rd gear of the HKS Header, and the magnitude of the advantage with the ACE header (and therefore presumably also a JDL 4-2-1 EL with over-pipe).

These results have me feeling like I would be pretty happy with just a header and a tune (and maybe a QUIET cat-back exhaust for better tone and the 1 or 2 hp it may give).

The question now is, are the tradeoffs of the non-catted EL header (ACE or JDL with over-pipe) worth it to me for the (admittedly quite substantial) advantage over the catted header in that crucial 2500-4750 rpm range?

The fact that the HKS catted header would potentially still feel weaker than the Tiburon on the 6th gear overtake because it's dropping into the torque dip through that range (even though objectively it should be faster) does give me some pause as well.

There is the moral / environmental concern of removing a cat, plus the fact that emissions regs will surely be tightening up over the next decade or so, but there's also the concern of the sound with the removal of that cat. I went through literally dozens of iterations of exhaust setups on my Tiburon to find a combination with the headers and single high flow cat (vs. the three it had stock) that made good power that my wife didn't absolutely hate, and she would murder me if I made her not like this car...LOL.

While I don't want to have to go through the HUGE expense of buying two different headers and tuning for each, it may be my only way to settle this debate.

With no current availability on the ACE headers, and the increasing frequency as of late of reports of cracking and other issues, if I go with a non-catted EL header, it will be the JDL 4-2-1 EL with their 2.5" overpipe, all ceramic coated.

If I did that first, and then did the HKS catted header, I'm almost certain I would be disappointed with the drop in midrange power. If I do the HKS catted header and tune first, though, I MIGHT be "happy enough" with it to stick with that solution and not incur the expense of buying and tuning for the other one.

So, I think the way forward is to get the HKS catted header and tune for that. If it still feels disappointing, then I'll have to bite the bullet and go for the JDL.

So, thus ends my novel detailing my thought process. I spent WAY too many hours charting all this stuff out, and writing down my thoughts, but it just might have saved me from spending several thousand dollars chasing power I don't want or need with a supercharger or swap.

Of course, either header option would also play well with either supercharger option if I decide that I still need more down the road...
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Last edited by Tatsu333; 12-01-2021 at 06:16 PM.
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