'17 BRZ PP vs. '11 Cayman 2.9

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

The idea that Porsche has reduced weight with each generation of Cayman/Boxster is false if you compare apples to apples. You have to look closely to see how they come up with their numbers. For instance the 718 has a fuel tank that is 4 gallons smaller than the 981 (and 987). But don't worry, the larger fuel tank is still available as cost option...

Yes true. Weight reduction is not something magic, but at least they offer such kind of options. In some cases they also offer A/C or infotainment delete with no additional cost. Of course, someone could argue why to do it since you paid for such parts. It depends of what you want. Personally I see it as an advantage and let's not forget that such kind of options add more complexity to the manufacturing process of the factory and in the overall cost of developing and maintaining more parts. Ask me that I had to do it the hard way in my BRZ via ordering all the factory deletion parts from Japan and doing all the work myself or in my dealership. If Toyota didn't place their money, such kind of deletion parts wouldn't even exist at all!

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

For brand new Porsches, sure I agree. For pre-turbo 911s and Caymans/Boxsters, no that is false. It is not more difficult to work on my Cayman than a BRZ. Some things are even easier (spark plugs, accessory belt, etc). But to say that the engine in a Cayman is a "pod" is criminally inaccurate.

What an experienced mechanic considers acceptable access can be different from an average person -

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn45h2WEI4g[/ame]

Any way you look at it, it's still a helluva lot harder and takes much more time than popping the hood of a BRZ. With my basic mechanical skills, I feel comfortable wrenching most things on my BRZ, but even after removing the panels, I'd hate to have to try and work through a slit and change the serpentine belt on a Cayman.

What I think is truly criminal is building a sports car without a simple mechanical dipstick. There's no rationale for that, except to drive more business to dealers rather than making it simple for average owners.

I love how the Cayman looks and drives. If I had a lot more money than I do, and if I didn't mind paying the premium prices for maintenance and repairs, I'd buy one. But I don't. For me, the BRZ offered 90% of the fun of the Cayman for 1/3 the purchase price, and maybe 1/5 to 1/10 of the ongoing costs (not 90% of the performance 'numbers' or track times, but to my butt, 90% of the simple seat-of-pants fun on the street). I'll take that deal in a New York minute.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

In some cases they also offer A/C or infotainment delete with no additional cost.

I found that to be a little cynical of Porsche, offering less stuff for same $$$. Meanwhile Honda sold the "delete" version of the S2000 CR sans A/C and stereo for $1000 less.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

What I think is truly criminal is building a sports car without a simple mechanical dipstick.

As long as it works, I found to my surprise that I *greatly* prefer this! Check oil without popping the hood or getting hands dirty. And I don't have to look squinty-eyed at a dipstick with oil/no-oil demarcation line at about 15 degrees to the lengthwise direction of the dipstick wondering how much oil I have, wiping, re-inserting and removing, and repeating a few times.

For me, the BRZ offered 90% of the fun of the Cayman for 1/3 the purchase price, and maybe 1/5 to 1/10 of the ongoing costs (not 90% of the performance 'numbers' or track times, but to my butt, 90% of the simple seat-of-pants fun on the street). I'll take that deal in a New York minute.

For me, it's the other way around, the Cayman has about 90% of the seat-of-pants fun on the street vs. the BRZ!

[Ernest72]

I agree with both. BRZ is 80% Porsche at 30% cost. Adjust the numbers how you see fit but you get the point.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

I agree with both. BRZ is 80% Porsche at 30% cost. Adjust the numbers how you see fit but you get the point.

This is what my purchase decision boiled down to as well. Fun for the dollar is an important metric to me.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by Pat

This is what my purchase decision boiled down to as well. Fun for the dollar is an important metric to me.

Yep I made the same decision. Car is just too much fun.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

What an experienced mechanic considers acceptable access can be different from an average person -

Any way you look at it, it's still a helluva lot harder and takes much more time than popping the hood of a BRZ. With my basic mechanical skills, I feel comfortable wrenching most things on my BRZ, but even after removing the panels, I'd hate to have to try and work through a slit and change the serpentine belt on a Cayman.

What I think is truly criminal is building a sports car without a simple mechanical dipstick. There's no rationale for that, except to drive more business to dealers rather than making it simple for average owners.

I love how the Cayman looks and drives. If I had a lot more money than I do, and if I didn't mind paying the premium prices for maintenance and repairs, I'd buy one. But I don't. For me, the BRZ offered 90% of the fun of the Cayman for 1/3 the purchase price, and maybe 1/5 to 1/10 of the ongoing costs (not 90% of the performance 'numbers' or track times, but to my butt, 90% of the simple seat-of-pants fun on the street). I'll take that deal in a New York minute.

If you're calling me an experienced mechanic, then thank you very much!

Funny you mention the serpentine belt, because I replaced mine 3 months ago. Was it a little time consuming to remove the front engine cover? Sure. Was it difficult to cram myself in between the front of the engine and the back of the seats? A little bit (and I'm 6'2" 200 lb). Was it difficult to replace the belt? Hell no, piece of cake. Super super easy. No radiator/cooling accessories in the way. Just the front of the engine for all to see.

And removing the top engine cover (for various things) only takes 10 minutes. Use an interior trim tool kit to pry out the sound deadening piece, unscrew the 5 torx screws, remove the aluminum heat guard, and then start doing whatever you need to do. (you can sit in the trunk while you do all this).

The electronic oil dipstick can be an inconvenience (depends on opinion) but for the mid engine Cayman, please tell me - exactly WHERE could you place an oil dipstick? It would have to be accessible from above the engine, which is covered by...(see above). Could 911s have an easily accessible dipstick? I would think yes, due to that engine placement.

All BMWs have used electronic dipsticks for 10+ years. THAT, IMO, is the true **** move, since those engines are all conventionally located.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I found that to be a little cynical of Porsche, offering less stuff for same $$$. Meanwhile Honda sold the "delete" version of the S2000 CR sans A/C and stereo for $1000 less.

Yes , in some areas they could lower the price. Like in the infotainment option where they replace it with a plastic box. The A/C delete option is a bit more complex, because you still get heat or window defrost functionality. But you know, they have a brand with history and recognition and they can decide to not lower the price.

[NorthernDriver]

Was the Cayman significantly more luxurious in real world applications? I'm assuming it more insulated than the BRZ.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by NorthernDriver

Was the Cayman significantly more luxurious in real world applications? I'm assuming it more insulated than the BRZ.

Yes, definitely a bit more insulated, less road and wind noise. Also the Cayman is definitely a stiffer unibody. Personally I'd like it better if it gave up some solidity and insulation for reduced weight, closer to FT86.

It's too bad Porsche doesn't make a legit lightweight bare-bones sports car...

[johhnc479]

Originally Posted by ZDan

It's too bad Porsche doesn't make a legit lightweight bare-bones sports car...

I agree. The light weight track versions always come with more horsepower more $.
https://www.motor1.com/news/408488/p...00-horsepower/

I'd like to see something track oriented, but stick to the adding lightness and track reliability. Keep the price [relatively] down.

[Dirty Harry]

Re-reading this, I can’t believe some Porsches don’t come with an LSD as standard, Porsche is supposed to be the pinnacle. Is PSM that good that it doesn’t need it? It’d be interesting to see a comparison with a non-LSD/PSM only Cayman.

[nikitopo]

Mid-engine position helps with weight distribution at rear. A LSD is not that much needed. I was checking lately the price of the LSD add-on option and it isn't too much expensive either. Do we know the details of Porsche's LSD? Is it a Torsen or something simpler?