2020 Toyota GR Supra Revealed!

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by Red-86

Do people think the 2.0 Supra will sell in places like the US? We can’t even get it here in Australia, no business case for it. I think they’ve missed a real opportunity with it. The B48 puts out 300HP in the JCWs and M135i Xdrive. Should be doing that in the Supra too. Or maybe that is saved for the 2022!

Many just want the car to look cool or get into a higher priced car than they can afford or for social status.


That is why cars like the camaro, mustang, charger, challenger and so on are so common here. You probably only see 1 high output/top trim car per every 10 base models you find on the roads.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I might buy one... I'm more interested in the 2.0 than the 3.0.
They will certainly be able to sell more Supras with the minimum entry price significantly lowered. And it can't be all *that* much trouble for them to offer it as the engine has already been developed for the convertible version of the car... Seems like a no-brainer to me, I'm pretty psyched that they're bringing it to the U.S. after all.

I’m kind of confused by your statement because the motor has been developed for other markets from the start, so the fact that it is in the Z4 isn’t a consideration. Maybe you aren’t aware, but the 2.0T was already CARB certified from the start as well, ‘just in case’ they said.

Also, the cheaper model isn’t always the one that sells better, but I agree that they will sell more units selling at multiple price points. The Mustang GT sold more than the V6 and 2.0T combined. It is all about value. The RZ might be worth the money over the SZ-R. I would buy an STI over a WRX because there is so much value. I don’t know if the RZ is worth the premium price because we don’t know the price of the SZ-R.

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/2015-fo...220054224.html

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Kiske

Many just want the car to look cool or get into a higher priced car than they can afford or for social status.


That is why cars like the camaro, mustang, charger, challenger and so on are so common here. You probably only see 1 high output/top trim car per every 10 base models you find on the roads.

If you are talking GT350 or GT500 then maybe 1/10, but not GT, as I stated above.

I think this gets someone into the Supra and instead of an NA 2JZ for the SZ-R, we have a tunable motor capable of decent power. For many, it is enough. For others, the sound, torque, power potential and nostalgia of an inline six will be enough to cough up the premium for the RZ.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gymratter

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/2020-toyota-gr-supra-20-dpl/

I’m happy they included the Optional Sport Pack, which provides the active diff, adaptive suspension and bigger/better brakes from the RZ. That should provide a price point between the SZ-R and RZ for some who want those luxury and performance items, but doesn’t need the power or power potential of the 3.0T.

I’m curious if that configuration would provide for a median weight of 50kg difference over the RZ and maybe be more rear bias than 50/50.

[gymratter]

sorry i forgot to add that was the European 2.0 Supra press release.

will the 2.0 Supra sale well in the US? idk, most polls done on our sister site shows only about 10% or so would be interested in it.

i believe ToyotaUSA has said the break down for 2021 Supras will be 80% 3.0 and 20% 2.0.

[BA9092]

Originally Posted by Red-86

The 2.0 Supra is a serious disappointment though. Too heavy and too expensive for its mediocre official performance. It should be pushing out at least 300HP...

If there is no next gen 86, I don’t know what I’ll ‘upgrade’ to from my 2015 twin. I was planning on the next gen... and hoping the rumour of the 2.4 turbo was true. It would be the perfect power and torque for the 86, basically making it an FR Cayman for beer money. Another NA, asthmatic, torque-less engine isn’t going to cut it today... performance expectations have moved on significantly from 2012, when the twins first came out. Regular non-sport ‘economy’ family hatchbacks give you 200HP and torque for days from turbo engines now.

The 2.0 Supra is no real 86 replacement. Too fat, far too expensive. The twins fill a real niche in the lineup... I really hope they don’t get killed off.

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

The "255hp" is closer to 280-290hp and thats before a 30hp/60ft+ warranty retaining Dinatronics tune. BMW often underrates their engine outputs as you know anyway. The true 50/50 weight distribution seems to have done the chassis a world of good according to those who have driven at least.

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

There is no way it produces mid 200 hp, it does 0-60 in 4.9s

True. It's most likely underrated.

My 2015 Golf R had 292hp/280tq at 3340lbs. 0-60 was claimed at 4.5.

The 2.0 Supra is certainly sexier too.

I know the 718 Cayman and Boxster are 4-bangers too, not to mention the WRX & STI, the S3/TTS, Type-R and both the Mustang and Camaro have turbo four variants... But spending +$40k on a 4-cylinder is tough to swallow.

If we don't get a second generation BRZ/86, then the "entry level" 2.0 Supra will be a great addition.

Every car is getting heavier and fatter. It's just become the normal evolution with safety and added features. I'm sure a new gen 86/BRZ would be heavier than the current model.

The BIGGEST complaint and issue with the current generation has always been power or lack thereof. But what's sufficient for the chassis? 220? 250? And who would chose between a $35k next gen twin with 230hp vs a $40k Supra with 260hp? A manual transmission maybe the only deciding factor at that point, unless Toyota/Subaru have something up their sleeve. Regardless, I doubt Toyota will make anything now to steal the spotlight from the Supra. Especially since they've confirmed the GR Yaris.

[BA9092]

Originally Posted by gymratter

sorry i forgot to add that was the European 2.0 Supra press release.

will the 2.0 Supra sale well in the US? idk, most polls done on our sister site shows only about 10% or so would be interested in it.

i believe ToyotaUSA has said the break down for 2021 Supras will be 80% 3.0 and 20% 2.0.

Interesting.

Considering only 20% projection for the 2.0 vs 80% for the 3.0, that sounds pretty dismal. Especially since the fanfare died pretty quickly once the C8 was unveiled.

I see two scenarios - the 2.0 Supra will be purchased by those who want the 3.0 but can't afford it or those who will turn it into a track monster.

Another possible scenario would be if the current 86/BRZ ceases production prior to a future gen.

[gymratter]

yeah if that rate pens out it would be pretty low imo. even the NA MK4 sold at a higher rate. about 12k A80s were sold in the US. roughly 7k were TT and 5k were NA.

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/2015-fo...220054224.html

You posted an article that is celebrating the oddity that the 6th gen Mustang launched with higher v8 sales in it's first 2 months of production. Of which almost all of that was thanks to the car enthusiasts who preordered a car. The 6th gen however has had the strongest v8 sales for a Mustang generation ever, the increased power and price gap between 4 cylinder and v8 currently offered will make for an interestimg finish.



Historically speaking with the Mustang, the smaller engines have always outsold the v8's in the final productions all the way back to the 60's. It's easy to forget as the only ones people bother restoring and keep on the road are the v8's. The amount of fleet, rentals and mom-mobiles is just to high which is why ford keeps making them.


It may not always translate clearly but , cheap almost is always a safe seller. Look at Audi's A-series vs S/RS series cars. BMW's regular cars vs M series sales, Lancers to Evolutions, STI to Wrx/Impreza... and so on... even truck sales follow suit.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by BA9092

Considering only 20% projection for the 2.0 vs 80% for the 3.0, that sounds pretty dismal.

Increasing sales by as much as 25% doesn't sound like such a bad idea...

I see two scenarios - the 2.0 Supra will be purchased by those who want the 3.0 but can't afford it or those who will turn it into a track monster.

I'm neither of those. I want the 200 lb. lighter-weight and less nose-heavy 2.0 more than I want the 3.0. And while I would track it and compete in time trials with it, it would be my daily and not a "track monster".

Another possible scenario would be if the current 86/BRZ ceases production prior to a future gen.

I don't see the 86/BRZ future as being strictly tied to the Supra. A 4-cylinder Supra and next-gen 86/BRZ could certainly coexist.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Kiske

You posted an article that is celebrating the oddity that the 6th gen Mustang launched with higher v8 sales in it's first 2 months of production. Of which almost all of that was thanks to the car enthusiasts who preordered a car. The 6th gen however has had the strongest v8 sales for a Mustang generation ever, the increased power and price gap between 4 cylinder and v8 currently offered will make for an interestimg finish.

Historically speaking with the Mustang, the smaller engines have always outsold the v8's in the final productions all the way back to the 60's. It's easy to forget as the only ones people bother restoring and keep on the road are the v8's. The amount of fleet, rentals and mom-mobiles is just to high which is why ford keeps making them.

I think we can agree that your 10 to 1 statement is a gross exaggeration, regardless of the numbers, right?

Originally Posted by Kiske

It may not always translate clearly but , cheap almost is always a safe seller. Look at Audi's A-series vs S/RS series cars. BMW's regular cars vs M series sales, Lancers to Evolutions, STI to Wrx/Impreza... and so on... even truck sales follow suit.

Agreed in general, but definitely less with sports cars. Every vehicle you listed is/was a passenger vehicle--a sedan that has a sportier variant. I doubt the base Corvette for instance will sell more than higher trims. I recall the Ferrari Testerossa sold more than the base model. Even amongst the economy cars, I know the GTI sells, or has sold, more than the base Golf. Also, when you're dealing with low production numbers like the Supra/s, the loss of sales may not matter much. It may be the case that adding the SZ-R eats into RZ sales more than it adds new customers.

Here are MKIV production numbers to compare. It seems split:

-93.5 Production Numbers:
2,819 Total Supras Sold
1,494 were twin turbos (233 6spd/hardtops, 431 6spd/targas, 830 4spd auto/targas)
1,325 were non-turbos (1,113 targas, 212 hardtops)

-94 Production Numbers:
3,488 Total Supras Sold
2,996 were twin turbos (75 6spd/hardtops, 1708 6spd/targas, 1213 4spd auto/targas)
492 were non-turbos (413 targas, 79 hardtops)

-95 Production Numbers:
2,347 Total Supras Sold
806 were twin turbo (18 6spd/hardtops, 526 6spd/targas, 262 4spd auto/targas)
1,541 were non-turbos (495 targas, 1046 hardtops)

-96 Production Numbers:
284 Total Supras Sold
88 were twin turbo (0 6spd/hardtops, 0 6spd/targas, 88 4spd auto/targas)
196 were non-turbos (168 targas, 28 hardtops)

-97 Production Numbers:
1,621 Total Supras Sold
1,177 were twin turbos (0 Hardtops, 768 6spd/Targas, 409 4spd Auto/Targas)
444 were non-turbos (126 Hardtops, 318 Targas)

-98 Production Numbers:
680 Total Supras Produced
416 were twin turbos (0 hardtops, ~279 6spd/targas, ~137 4spd auto/targas)
264 were non-turbos (~36 hardtops, ~228 Targas)

6,877 were twin turbo
4,262 were non-turbo

11,139 total from 1993.5-1998

[BA9092]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Increasing sales by as much as 25% doesn't sound like such a bad idea...

I'm neither of those. I want the 200 lb. lighter-weight and less nose-heavy 2.0 more than I want the 3.0. And while I would track it and compete in time trials with it, it would be my daily and not a "track monster".



I don't see the 86/BRZ future as being strictly tied to the Supra. A 4-cylinder Supra and next-gen 86/BRZ could certainly coexist.

True. And I do get it.

However, I'm playing devil's advocate here and I also feel Toyota's putting all of their "sports car eggs" in one basket, so that's why I fear for the 86's future.

Granted it takes the cooperation of BMW and Subaru to make these vehicles happen. I just hope Subaru can stick with it long enough for us to see the next 86/BRZ.

The 86 has been the sole sports car from Toyota since 2012. Filling the void since the MR2 ceased production in 2007. Now, 2020, we have two Supra variants and one 86 to choose from.

I'd rather see Toyota's "4-cylinder" sports car come back as an MR2.

[Irace86.2.0]

Im guessing the next gen 86 will have a high compression d4s variant of the fa24 or the same engine as before with chassis changes. It doesn’t need much to compete in the mid to high $20k segment.

The quality of the two cars are night and day different. They could have identical power and still sell at vastly different price points, even if the SZ-R was slower. It has happened before all over the car industry.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by BA9092

Another possible scenario would be if the current 86/BRZ ceases production prior to a future gen.

I think this is a distinct possibility. I’d be very surprised if a traditionally conservative corporation like Toyota kept producing two separate low volume RWD sports coupes (86 and Supra) in the current economic climate and consumer market.

The ‘sensible’ business decision would be to axe the gen II 86 and focus on the 2.0 and 3.0 Supras going forward. Main problem being the high cost of producing the 4 cylinder - probably not much different to the manufacturing cost of the 6 cylinder - in markets where people expect the 2.0 to be significantly cheaper than the 3.0. One benefit of the 86 is production cost is likely much lower than the 2.0 Supra, which allows Toyota to position the 86 in an ‘affordable’ price bracket the Supra will never be able to fit in.