Burnt Clutch at just 4800 miles!

[mike the snake]

Agreed! 100%

There's no way that failure was caused by you.

Even abused clutches don't go out like that. That is obviously a defective clutch disc (IMO) that broke apart, and then, IF the pressure plate was damaged, it was due to the clutch disc coming apart.

An abused clutch would have probably burned up the disc and also the flywheel. The fact that they didn't replace the flywheel says (to me) that nothing was overheated.

That's a warranty fix if I ever saw one.

I would definitely follow up on this to higher level people.

Also, there's a bunch of shops in my area advertizing clutch replacements for $300 labor plus parts. It's an easy job on a RWD car.

Originally Posted by Suberman

That's NOT a burned clutch. That's a defective clutch plate. The linings show no signs of heat damage, they just disintegrated.

Jeez, I cannot believe your dealership is pulling that crap. Those clutch linings look BRAND NEW just as you'd expect after only 4,800 miles. That clutch isn't even broken in yet.

Total, total bull crap. Claim your warranty. If Toyota refuses to pay put the pictures in a local newspaper.

Oh, yes, and another thing those labour charges are fraudulent. No way it costs that kind of money to drop a tranny off the back of a rwd boxer engine.


That just has to be covered by warranty. I've never seen such a piece of crap!

Anybody? Anybody thinks that's a normal clutch plate ?

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Suberman

That's NOT a burned clutch. That's a defective clutch plate. The linings show no signs of heat damage, they just disintegrated.......


Anybody? Anybody thinks that's a normal clutch plate ?

I agree that the clutch material does not look like it was burned by friction.

It does look like it was torn apart by something (like the clutch disk itself). Of course, they might have messed up the disk material getting it off the disk plate .....

humfrz

[Evil Jesus]

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by FastOnFastOff

Like I said before, I've been driving manual transmissions a loooong time and this is a first. Maybe it was ABUSE like Porsche suggested,

And that does not mean that it is INTENTIONAL abuse; I think MOST people abuse their cars in various ways, but it's what I call "benign abuse." They're not trying to damage their cars or subject them to unnecessary additional wear and tear; they just don't know any better.

Now, in some instances we witness WILLFUL IGNORANCE, and I cannot sympathize with the troubles arising from that attitude.

A classic example of this is the refusal to use the handbrake on hill starts, 'cuz only a girlyman would use the handbrake. Yeah, well that form of ignorance is accompanied by it's own built-in punishment. A clutch that could have lasted 150,000 miles or more is now erased in a mere fraction of that time.

(Those who persist in this foolishness will not get any argument from me; I'll be pleased to sit back and watch you people continue to needlessly and pointlessly erase your clutch disks. It's a free country after all. "Erase" away, folks! )

but I've known other guys to SERIOUSLY ABUSE their trannys with no issues. The best that'll come out of this is that at the very least we have place like these forums to document these mechanical issues.

Perhaps it is the result of a mechanical failure unrelated to the driver. It certainly sounds like it could be.

But if your clutch failure is attributable to something YOU'RE doing, it would be a good thing for you to learn about it, and learn how to correct the practice so you don't destroy yet another expensive clutch. It would also help others here, many of whom are inexperienced and come here hoping to learn.

Because if the dealer's gonna work on my car, I'll make sure they work on everything possible. Like the crickets, for example.

Crickets? High pressure fuel pump swaps? Nuuuuu...

Not me, mon. They can keep their grubby paws off my perfectly functioning HPFP and fuel lines. The crickets are just one of MANY noises this car makes as it happily purrs along. Cars make noises. This particular make and model is exceptionally noisy. It was made that way.

Once again, THANKS!!

I like your attitude in this thread; you have shown a remarkably agreeable approach, and an openness and willingness to accept different ideas and criticism, especially constructive criticism. Unlike the kids these days, you're willing to learn from those who may know more than you. Maybe we can all help you figure out what happened here, and how to avoid any repetition.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by Suberman

That just has to be covered by warranty. I've never seen such a piece of crap!

Anybody? Anybody thinks that's a normal clutch plate ?

No.

And why is the metal blued?

Yet, the flywheel is okay?!

Really?

This is strange. I'm not close to being an expert on these matters, but these photos raise a lot of doubts in my mind. When in doubt, I say one rules in favor of the customer and makes repairs under warranty.

Absent a plausible explanation for how CUSTOMER ABUSE could possibly account for this clutch, it must be rationally concluded that this was the result of mechanical failure uncorrelated with anything the driver may have done. Even the mechanic was, apparently, unable to account for what caused this, what the customer might POSSIBLY have done wrong to account for this damage.

I don't know diddly, but I think the OP has a strong case for full reimbursement here.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by pche

Subaru paid for everything, I had to do it for 1/3 of labor time.

And THIS is a "good" reason for dealerships to deny warranty work -- they make more money charging their regular rates.

An HONEST mechanic can find it difficult to accommodate the moral dilemmas they face in their every workday as they witness these abuses and are made to be unwilling accomplices in the dishonest acts of management.

An HONEST man is all but forced to compromise his principles just to find work in the industry. Compared to days long gone, the dishonest people seem to far outnumber the honest people. I think most honest people have been forced to just give up in despair and just try to make the best of things in order to put food on the table for their families.

It's a crying shame what has become of this once great country.

[Note: This is in SUPPORT of @pche, not an attack on him.]

[pche]

Originally Posted by Porsche

And THIS is a "good" reason for dealerships to deny warranty work -- they make more money charging their regular rates.

An HONEST mechanic can find it difficult to accommodate the moral dilemmas they face in their every workday as they witness these abuses and are made to be unwilling accomplices in the dishonest acts of management.

An HONEST man is all but forced to compromise his principles just to find work in the industry. Compared to days long gone, the dishonest people seem to far outnumber the honest people. I think most honest people have been forced to just give up in despair and just try to make the best of things in order to put food on the table for their families.

It's a crying shame what has become of this once great country.

[Note: This is in SUPPORT of @pche, not an attack on him.]

Not entirely true, and thanks for the clarification. It's usually easier for the dealer to stand with the customer and cover the repairs. CSI rating is very important for dealers. Satisfied customers=high CSI rating. Manufacturers reimburse the dealer for the repairs they performed. It's worth getting paid less time by Scion to gain a happy returning customer than to get a little more cash time from a pissed off customer who's gonna tell an entire forum about his mistreatment.

For a claim to get shot down on a brand new car, there has to be a very apparent evidence that it's abuse/misuse, or at least enough for them to believe that the claim is going to bounce if Scion decide to call back and examined the "failed" components.

I'm not claiming I know everything, but I believe pictures of the pressure plate is going to tell a better story of what really happened. Looks to me the spring of the pressure plate broke(often from slamming gears and dumping clutch), hence the sunken pedal. Again, I'm not saying its 100% OPs fault, it may very well be a parts defect. It's just hard to prove and looks more like an abuse to the staff of that specific service department.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by pche

It's just hard to prove and looks more like an abuse to the staff of that specific service department.

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying at this juncture that you believe it is still "undetermined," pending review of other components, which we have not yet seen.

Based upon your own personal experience, and ignoring issues of customer satisfaction, would you guess this was a mechanical failure or driver failure. Or, are you unable to say at this time, which I would consider quite reasonable.

Also, if it isn't too impertinent, may I ask what your age is, roughly? Twenties, thirties, forties, etc.? Fear not; I'm not going to attack you. That's not my way.

[fistpoint]

Originally Posted by nate89

Here's some reading for you:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-scare-feature

I also checked into the situation personally when I was an engineer and found no mechaical issues. Also notice it only happened to automatic trans equipped vehicles.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Yea, all those are 1-3 year old articles, the same ones I've read and always agreed with...until I read a couple weeks ago about the shitty software, I think it was on this forum.

I'll have to try and find it.
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Found it! And it is a new case, not even 1 month old. But I was wrong about it being software, it was FIRMware...I got the "ware" part right

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive...s-consequences

[FastOnFastOff]

Originally Posted by Porsche

But if your clutch failure is attributable to something YOU'RE doing, it would be a good thing for you to learn about it, and learn how to correct the practice so you don't destroy yet another expensive clutch.

Unlike the kids these days, you're willing to learn from those who may know more than you. Maybe we can all help you figure out what happened here, and how to avoid any repetition.

Thanks, though I wish I were a kid. Some Nissan Marketing VP recently blasted the FT-86 as a mid-life crisis car, which secures the fact that there are very few kids on this forum!

But seriously though, yes, if it could be determined that my shifting technique killed this clutch, I would love to be enlightened.

Tomorrow, if time permits, I'll call corporate to inform them. I already filed a report with them a few days back.

[fistpoint]

Originally Posted by FastOnFastOff

But seriously though, yes, if it could be determined that my shifting technique killed this clutch, I would love to be enlightened.

I don't think so.

You say you've never had issues before? Lets assume the guy who proposed you may have unknown to you "bad clutch habits", is correct. Wouldn't these unknown habits also have been done on your previous clutches and at least at some point made themselves known? Why only this clutch?

For that reason and the fact that it failed so quickly(4800m), suggest your clutching habits good or bad, are probably not the cause.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by FastOnFastOff

Are the dealerships required to repair all TSB's under warranty - no cost to the owner? If someone could clearly explain how all this works, I'd appreciate it. Because if the dealer's gonna work on my car, I'll make sure they work on everything possible. Like the crickets, for example.

TSBs are applied to the relevant VIN within the TSB (i.e. VIN is before fix was applied at the factory).

If you have an issue that can be claimed under warranty, the TSB may be applied as a fix, but it is normally not applied unless a replicable issue can be documented.

-alex

[pche]

Originally Posted by Porsche

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying at this juncture that you believe it is still "undetermined," pending review of other components, which we have not yet seen.

Based upon your own personal experience, and ignoring issues of customer satisfaction, would you guess this was a mechanical failure or driver failure. Or, are you unable to say at this time, which I would consider quite reasonable.

Also, if it isn't too impertinent, may I ask what your age is, roughly? Twenties, thirties, forties, etc.? Fear not; I'm not going to attack you. That's not my way.

Yea, without seeing the rest of the parts it's hard to tell exactly what happened. It's definitely reasonable to assume its a parts failure, but it's also reasonable to speculate user error. By looking at the clutch plate, IMHO, it was abrupt. Car probably made a hellish noise than the clutch failed. Doesn't look like a "premature wear" from an accumulated abuse. That leads me to believe the clutch was dumped at a real high RPM.

Again, it's just my own speculation, speaking from experience and by the pictures. Usually once the bill is paid by the customer, it's hard to get reimbursed. Because basically the dealer would have to pay for the rest of the labor cost, and most places don't like doing that.

Ive been wrenching for 10 years, 3 with Subaru, rest with GM and VW/Porsche

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by fistpoint

Yea, all those are 1-3 year old articles, the same ones I've read and always agreed with...until I read a couple weeks ago about the shitty software, I think it was on this forum.

I'll have to try and find it.
.
.
.
Found it! And it is a new case, not even 1 month old. But I was wrong about it being software, it was FIRMware...I got the "ware" part right

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive...s-consequences

Court findings shouldn't be relied on as support for anything engineering or science related. Judges (and especially juries ) are notoriously ignorant of scientific methods.

If NASA engineers couldn't find technical faults there weren't any.

The only faulty computer crashing these cars is located in the nut holding the steering wheel.