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Old 05-09-2021, 06:21 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
Range, number of refuelling stations and refuelling times are not superior.



What about hydrogen?
Range is on par with most ICE gas tanks.

There are more refueling stations for EVs—multiple in every house and building. People could also add some gas tanks to their garage. I do with E85, but EVs typically get charged at home at night. Fast charging stations don’t need to be as plentiful as gas stations. They would only be used for special occasions by most people.

Recharging times are slower when fast charging is needed, but this is currently an infrastructure problem with the current technology. Fast charging will improve, but companies like Niro are proving that swapping is a viable alternative that is faster than filling up with gas.

Hydrogen is less efficient and requires much more infrastructure, so it is more likely to be there in a future where energy is in excess and if there is a limit or bottleneck in battery materials that require small batteries in vehicles.
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:31 PM   #44
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I have no idea if it is theoretically possible to build a suitable lightweight battery.
Having said that it would seem for most manufacturers weight is no longer a consideration.
How lightweight is lightweight? What are your requirements for range and performance? Are we comparing the average ecobox to the average ecobox?
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:42 PM   #45
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At the risk of going awol/a little divergent I think the concept of green cars is a little misleading. That is, sure, the car is green once it is on the road but there is an energy cost in manufacturing said vehicle that is never mentioned in the adverts.
There are greener and less green vehicles. I don’t really know if there was a hard line where a car turns into a green car.

I agree because the size of the carbon footprint a vehicle has is dependent on local electricity production and size of batteries and other things, but in general, EVs average a better carbon footprint, even when these factors are considered. They will only get better as utilities switch to renewables and as battery production becomes more local, which is already happening. ICEs aren’t advancing in fuel economy much more. If anything, the push to trucks and SUVs/CUVs is only going to hurt fuel economy.
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Old 05-09-2021, 06:52 PM   #46
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I would not throw an LFA out of bed.

The Taycan Turbo S Lightning Lap was 2:55.2. That's .1 second behind the LFA.

EVs are heavy, but the weight seems to matter little in terms of outright performance. Upcoming EV hypercars will destroy the LFA's time and likely those of every other car tested. The fastest vehicle ever at Pike's Peak is a VW EV. It's not even close.

Range is a marketing thing, for the most part. I take long car trips almost never. The Model Y can still get me from my house to my parents' house with one charge in the middle at 75mph. Just a leisurely meal as it charges. This is much nicer than the same 405 miles in an FRS. Believe me, I've done it. But then I only make that drive once every 2-3 years. Mainly I just drive 0 - 100 miles a day, and the EV is perfect for that. I can always rent a car for the 1 in 1000 days.

Sound is overrated. I never say to myself, "I know a car is better than a horse, but a car doesn't neigh like a proper horse. I'll really miss the neighing while in a car. And I want more tire and wind noise, too." Nay. It's just something the buff magazines have leapt upon as if it matters, which it doesn't.
Sorry, but sound is not overrated. If it was, people wouldn't spend thousands of dollars just to make their car sound different. There wouldn't be companies with entire departments dedicated to sound.. they'd just put random shit on cars and let them drive around not caring about whatever sound came out.

Imagine saying sound is overrated to a deaf person.

I wonder why people buy wind chimes.
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Old 05-09-2021, 07:07 PM   #47
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Sorry, but sound is not overrated. If it was, people wouldn't spend thousands of dollars just to make their car sound different. There wouldn't be companies with entire departments dedicated to sound.. they'd just put random shit on cars and let them drive around not caring about whatever sound came out.

Imagine saying sound is overrated to a deaf person.

I wonder why people buy wind chimes.
Car sound is overrated. It isn't music. It's vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRR! Nothing is nastier than an open-exhaust rotary engine. It's like cutlery mixed with glass bottles in a dryer, and that's at 200 feet. Closer, it's worse.

Anyway, if you want sound, just play it on the stereo. You can make your EV sound like a V12 or an i8. Or farts, apparently. You can even fake gear shifts. It's not exactly a difficult problem to solve.
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by EAGLE5 View Post
Car sound is overrated. It isn't music. It's vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRR! Nothing is nastier than an open-exhaust rotary engine. It's like cutlery mixed with glass bottles in a dryer, and that's at 200 feet. Closer, it's worse.

Anyway, if you want sound, just play it on the stereo. You can make your EV sound like a V12 or an i8. Or farts, apparently. You can even fake gear shifts. It's not exactly a difficult problem to solve.
choose your poison:

ICE = Weedwhacker/lawnmower/

electric = vaccuum cleaner
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Sasquachulator View Post
choose your poison:

ICE = Weedwhacker/lawnmower/

electric = vaccuum cleaner
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...hl=en_US&gl=US
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Old 05-10-2021, 06:56 PM   #50
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Range - Improving every single year. Also let's face it just how many average Joes drive more than current EV ranges in a day? I doubt that even 20% would ever need more.

Charging - Not sure where it stands in the US or Australia but we have high speed stations popping up almost everywhere. That capability is also improving every year.

Weight - OK this is a sports car focused forum where weight rules. Now go out and ask 10 random people on the street what their car weighs. I doubt you will get one answer. The 2% of the car buying population that cares are the ones that hang out on sports car forums. Nobody else gives a damn.

Sound - Back to the same 2% that care. The general public doesn't care if the car makes sound. In fact most would have less even in ICE. Notice how only certain makes and models pump in sound or have fake cabin noise? Everything else makes a big deal about how quiet they are inside.

All in all I totally expect the majority of sports car forum users to adamantly deny the growth of electric and eventual demise of ICE but most of the arguments are incomplete or just plan misinformed.
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:05 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Tcoat View Post
Range - Improving every single year. Also let's face it just how many average Joes drive more than current EV ranges in a day? I doubt that even 20% would ever need more.

Charging - Not sure where it stands in the US or Australia but we have high speed stations popping up almost everywhere. That capability is also improving every year.

Weight - OK this is a sports car focused forum where weight rules. Now go out and ask 10 random people on the street what their car weighs. I doubt you will get one answer. The 2% of the car buying population that cares are the ones that hang out on sports car forums. Nobody else gives a damn.

Sound - Back to the same 2% that care. The general public doesn't care if the car makes sound. In fact most would have less even in ICE. Notice how only certain makes and models pump in sound or have fake cabin noise? Everything else makes a big deal about how quiet they are inside.

All in all I totally expect the majority of sports car forum users to adamantly deny the growth of electric and eventual demise of ICE but most of the arguments are incomplete or just plan misinformed.
As for range, the word "ever" is the problem there. Right now, I CAN go on a road trip and not have to plan out where I have to stop for a few hours. I only travel like that a few times a year, but it would be really annoying to have to add 2 hours on to that.

"Sports cars" over 3500lb are aberrations. EVs that have range and power do so by carrying big ass batteries, which are the real problems here. They are heavy AF, they are expensive, they wear out, they are filled with hazardous and relatively rare materials, they stay on fire until they decide to stop, it takes energy to keep them from losing energy, and they are heavy AF (yes, I said that twice).

The simple solution to using less energy is to reduce the mass and drag of the thing you want to move. So why are we trying to be more efficient by producing huge luxury cars that have 300 mile ranges? Yes, you can recover a portion of the energy you use but you still lose a lot to heat. What we need is a way to make light, efficient EVs that don't try for a 0-60 of 1.0s or something ridiculous, and then give them a means to travel larger distances than they could store in an appropriately sized battery.

I just really don't like the way EVs are going from an engineering perspective. It's all about the sales pitch and not about finding the optimal solution IMO.
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Old 05-10-2021, 09:48 PM   #52
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The original Tesla Roadster had a 53 KWh battery good for 240 miles and the entire car weighed in just a bit over the Twins (at 2877 lbs). All specs are from the Wiki article, which also says that the battery has an energy density of 117 Wh/kg, meaning that the batteries weigh in at around 1000 lbs, which is about the difference from an Elise minus the 2ZZ engine.

The second gen Roadster is planned to have 200 KWh battery (so 4x) giving 620 miles of range (so 2.6x). No weight figure is given, but I would guess at a lot.

I doubt there's any technical problem in making a lightweight EV sports car with decent range. It's just that nobody cares about such things. Tesla really brought the 0-60 time to the spotlight in mass market obtainable cars (in a territory that was once reserved to million dollar exotics) and that's what anyone is marketing for.

I hope that once the first rush of EVs arrives and everyone is settled down to the brave new electric world somebody will make a small lightweight EV sports car that would be fun to drive. Perhaps Mazda with an EV Miata. Or Lotus with their future cars.
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:29 AM   #53
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What we need is a way to make light, efficient EVs that don't try for a 0-60 of 1.0s or something ridiculous
More power with an induction motor (and the motor controller) makes the car more efficient though, and weight is less important than drag, which is why the ultra-heavy + ultra-powerful formula is popular.

That said, there is another way: Low power + 2 or 3 speed manual transmission gets your motor efficiency up without the expense of more motors and more power.

That's the kind of car I want to drive: First gen Roadster with a next-generation battery pack that weighs 700lbs less, and manual control over the gearbox. You have to downshift to 1st gear when you come to a stop if you want to regen as much energy as possible
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Old 05-11-2021, 02:51 PM   #54
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As for range, the word "ever" is the problem there. Right now, I CAN go on a road trip and not have to plan out where I have to stop for a few hours. I only travel like that a few times a year, but it would be really annoying to have to add 2 hours on to that.

"Sports cars" over 3500lb are aberrations. EVs that have range and power do so by carrying big ass batteries, which are the real problems here. They are heavy AF, they are expensive, they wear out, they are filled with hazardous and relatively rare materials, they stay on fire until they decide to stop, it takes energy to keep them from losing energy, and they are heavy AF (yes, I said that twice).

The simple solution to using less energy is to reduce the mass and drag of the thing you want to move. So why are we trying to be more efficient by producing huge luxury cars that have 300 mile ranges? Yes, you can recover a portion of the energy you use but you still lose a lot to heat. What we need is a way to make light, efficient EVs that don't try for a 0-60 of 1.0s or something ridiculous, and then give them a means to travel larger distances than they could store in an appropriately sized battery.

I just really don't like the way EVs are going from an engineering perspective. It's all about the sales pitch and not about finding the optimal solution IMO.
They kind of did that and are still doing that. EVs with short range and small batteries and bad acceleration have been around for quite some time. The new batch of EVs aren’t the greenest EVs; they are trying to appeal to the rest of the market, trying to convince them that EVs will be better cars, regardless of if they are more green. That is the pitch they need to make, and it starts with luxury cars, and then it will trickle down. The masses will get smaller batteries.

Once battery swapping is more common, the range/time anxiety for trips will go away, and the size of the batteries will get smaller. Performance and efficiency will improve too like you mention.
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Old 05-14-2021, 12:15 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Spuds View Post
As for range, the word "ever" is the problem there. Right now, I CAN go on a road trip and not have to plan out where I have to stop for a few hours. I only travel like that a few times a year, but it would be really annoying to have to add 2 hours on to that.

"Sports cars" over 3500lb are aberrations. EVs that have range and power do so by carrying big ass batteries, which are the real problems here. They are heavy AF, they are expensive, they wear out, they are filled with hazardous and relatively rare materials, they stay on fire until they decide to stop, it takes energy to keep them from losing energy, and they are heavy AF (yes, I said that twice).

The simple solution to using less energy is to reduce the mass and drag of the thing you want to move. So why are we trying to be more efficient by producing huge luxury cars that have 300 mile ranges? Yes, you can recover a portion of the energy you use but you still lose a lot to heat. What we need is a way to make light, efficient EVs that don't try for a 0-60 of 1.0s or something ridiculous, and then give them a means to travel larger distances than they could store in an appropriately sized battery.

I just really don't like the way EVs are going from an engineering perspective. It's all about the sales pitch and not about finding the optimal solution IMO.
Have you seen those GM ads? Oh my god.
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Old 05-15-2021, 02:59 PM   #56
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I feel like the next batch of Lotus cars will be similar in their platform and style, but I would love to see an entry-level Lotus that is a FR layout that takes cues and proportions from this Lotus Elite pictured from Gordon Murray's collection.

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