FRS / BRZ Intake Manifold - Development Thread - FT-86SpeedFactory by Velox

[mad_sb]

[Edit: deleted responses to off topic question]

Do you guys have an eta for the first round of dyno testing yet?

[VerusEric]

Originally Posted by mad_sb

[Edit: deleted responses to off topic question]

Do you guys have an eta for the first round of dyno testing yet?

We're trying to have a working prototype by the end of March.

[zooki]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I'm really not liking the math here.
Stock=unique.
Velox=unique.
∴ Velox=stock.

Welcome to the "sensitive era". Everybody is special is their own way. Nobody is better than anybody else, the score is "fun" to "fun". Wouldn't want anybody to feel inadequate now, do we?
😜

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by zooki

Welcome to the "sensitive era". Everybody is special is their own way. Nobody is better than anybody else, the score is "fun" to "fun". Wouldn't want anybody to feel inadequate now, do we?
😜

That's what happens when you start handing out ribbons for participating instead of winning.

[8R6]

Originally Posted by NotEric6

If you guys want to start a thread related to cooling the intake charge, I will happily weigh in my thoughts in that thread. I have experience modifying and calibrating on my 500rwhp MR2 Turbo. I have used pump alone, e85 alone, pump with water, pump with meth, and E85 with meth.

Trying to keep this one dedicated to the intake manifold and construction of it .

Thanks guys,
Eric

lol @ username

[2much]

Originally Posted by BRGT86

lol @ username

ssssshhhhhhhh!

[arghx7]

I'm a couple days late to this...

Originally Posted by Calum

To the best of my knowledge, not that has been found so far. Carbed engines, and port injected engines that move the injector to the beginning of the manifold port, make measurably more power than a traditional port injected motor because of the way the fuel will collect along the runner and then evaporate.

Carbs and throttle body injection/distantly placed multiport have more cylinder to cylinder variations in combustion, because now you need to balance airflow and fuel distribution. That's one of the reasons why a conventional port injected engine can make more power - intake manifold design isn't constrained by fuel distribution, unless you count evaporate purge vapors. That's why you see crappy short runner downdraft manifolds on every carb and throttlebody injected engine from the 80s, while you had much more elaborate intake systems with variable intake runners etc on higher end engines.

A few years ago I came across a video showing this effect. In the video an engine running at full power on an engine dyno would develop a layer of frost on its intake manifold. If the engine builder moved the injectors closer to the head it wouldn't cool the intake manifold and thus the intake air, and they lost some power.

You've probably never tuned on an engine dyno before, but this dude's humidity control system was jacked up, or he didn't spend the money on a humidity control system at all. SAE standard power conditions are 25C at the airbox @ 100 kPa air supply pressure, relative humidity under 70%. You don't get frost in those conditions if you set the engine up on the dyno right.

I haven't seen the video but I really question this guy's testing methods or equipment. It goes against common sense - how could direct injection cool an intake charge better than port injection if the coolest charge air comes from having a carb or throttlebody injected engine?

I guess if it gets to a point that the density of the air and thus the larger amount of oxygen available is overshadowed by the heat required to burn that oxygen then cooling the intake charge would be less beneficial. I'd love to hear from @arghx7 on the subject though. Also I wonder if there's a point that the air density could increase cylinder pressures to the point that it wouldn't be possible to maintain MBT?

When it comes to manifold air temperature, the colder the better until you run into some kind of frosting problem (depends on humidity) or thermal shock issues that could break parts. Turbo engines are more prone to knocking so they benefit more.

Really when you are trying to cool an intake manifold, it only makes sense if you have a turbo engine with integrated air-water intercooler inside the manifold like a Ford 1.5L Ecoboost and some of the 1.4L VW turbo engines. Then you might have 30C water flowing through cooling 120C+ hot air coming from the turbo.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by arghx7

I haven't seen the video but I really question this guy's testing methods or equipment. It goes against common sense - how could direct injection cool an intake charge better than port injection if the coolest charge air comes from having a carb or throttlebody injected engine?

The engine was a distantly placed multiport (thanks for the correct terminology) not direct injection.

Thanks for chiming in. Good to see you're still here.

[VerusEric]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

Not to mention it makes tuning that much more complicated.

Originally Posted by s2d4

It's retarded if one has access to E85.
If not, I still wouldn't run it unless I have to.

Originally Posted by abraxis

Why not just do water/meth injection?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...74#post2181874

Started a thread dedicated to cooling the charge air.

Their will be updates this week regarding the intake manifold. Some of the pieces are running behind but for the most part we're getting closer and closer.

[VerusEric]

Guess it's time for an update.





Center section has been welded. Waiting for the o-rings to arrive so that I can pressure test it.

Side note: I am an engineer, not a welder! These are not indicative of the welds a production manifold would see. Our production units will be nicer as they will be professionally tig welded, but due to costs and time, I did the first one.

[*KID*]

Winkle black for finishing products

[Calum]

Originally Posted by NotEric6

Guess it's time for an update.





Center section has been welded. Waiting for the o-rings to arrive so that I can pressure test it.

Side note: I am an engineer, not a welder! These are not indicative of the welds a production manifold would see. Our production units will be nicer as they will be professionally tig welded, but due to costs and time, I did the first one.

I've seen a lot worse welds from professionals.

[wootwoot]

Originally Posted by Calum

I've seen a lot worse welds from professionals.

From professionals on production units no less. Well done.

[Hyper4mance2k]

Was a design with the injectors out of the air stream and positioned directly above the velocity stack ever considered?