Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[ermax]

Originally Posted by DJ72

Any of the 2013 FR-S owners that have had engine failure after getting the JO2 recall done sit tight. Disregard the incompetent comments on here. Those people did not have shell out $6-7,000 out of there pockets. The engine failure was 100% Toyota’s fault and it will get covered. I am currently working with Toyota to resolve this issue. It was only 2013’s that were affected. I work for a large corporation and see how they try to disregard things, until that is, enough noise is made. I should find out this week if Toyota is going to reimburse me for the cost of the engine repair. If your are one that was affected by this, please just shoot me a message. I am only looking to recoup the money that I payed for the repairs. Nothing more.

Your writing style shows incompetence. I’m not even sure what you post is trying to accomplish. Have you even read this thread at all? You do know that Toyota does not own dealers right? You do know what actually causes the failures right? It isn’t the valve springs that’s for sure. If someone wants a legitimate class action it will be related to the insufficient oil supply to the #2/3 rod journals. Those bearing failures are related to a design flaw rather than shity labor by privately owned dealers.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by ka-t_240

Valvesprings are not related to the short block.





Likely, what happened is that previous engine failures have contaminated something in the engine that is not being properly cleaned or there is sealant in the front cover. At this point, In my opinion the correct fix is another new short block, new heads/cams, new oil pump/pickup, and new front cover.

Considering it’s #4 every time my bet is they are using too much packing and blocking the main that feeds #4. That is the most venerable place for overuse of packing.



Actually I take that back. This location is between the block halves which they wouldn't touch if doing a new short block.

[Ichima]

Originally Posted by ka-t_240

Do you have an invoice copy you could upload by chance? I am curious how the new motor failed w/ new everything.

I do have the invoice in my car, I'll take a picture later tonight and provide that information. But after the new short block, I definitely still have a louder than usual knock and also when driving I have a loud ticking noise I want to say on the passenger side. Tough to hear with the exhaust but when listening closely enough it's there and loud enough to worry.

[killmequickly]

Originally Posted by ermax

Your writing style shows incompetence. I’m not even sure what you post is trying to accomplish. Have you even read this thread at all? You do know that Toyota does not own dealers right? You do know what actually causes the failures right? It isn’t the valve springs that’s for sure. If someone wants a legitimate class action it will be related to the insufficient oil supply to the #2/3 rod journals. Those bearing failures are related to a design flaw rather than shity labor by privately owned dealers.

Again, the fact that Toyota and Subaru don't own dealerships does not mean they cannot be found liable for problems that occur at the dealership level or from work stemming from the dealership. I believe it all depends on the details. For example, if Toyota accidentally gave wrong instructions, omitted instructions, failed to warn technicians about an issue, improperly trained technicians, or knowingly hid certain details about an issue from dealers and their technicians they could be found at fault (if proven) or jointly at fault (along with the dealer). Just because the dealerships do not belong to them does not give them an iron wall defense or resolve them of every and all responsibilities from issues which arise at the dealer level. Didn't Toyota change their instructions early on in the wake of the J02 recall after a few FR-S' started blowing? (or was it before?, can someone confirm?)

I think most of us understand that the replacement of the valve spring itself is not the root cause, however, I think what we are seeing is that the work that is performed during this recall is increasing the likelihood that the actual problem reveals itself. The fact remains that whatever the real problem is, the valve spring recall has allowed the problem to surface exponentially and is, in some way, directly or indirectly, contributing to the blown engines and I would argue most likely the fires as well.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by killmequickly

Again, the fact that Toyota and Subaru don't own dealerships does not mean they cannot be found liable for problems that occur at the dealership level or from work stemming from the dealership. I believe it all depends on the details. For example, if Toyota accidentally gave wrong instructions, omitted instructions, failed to warn technicians about an issue, improperly trained technicians, or knowingly hid certain details about an issue from dealers and their technicians they could be found at fault (if proven) or jointly at fault (along with the dealer). Just because the dealerships do not belong to them does not give them an iron wall defense or resolve them of every and all responsibilities from issues which arise at the dealer level. Didn't Toyota change their instructions early on in the wake of the J02 recall after a few FR-S' started blowing? (or was it before?, can someone confirm?)

I think most of us understand that the replacement of the valve spring itself is not the root cause, however, I think what we are seeing is that the work that is performed during this recall is increasing the likelihood that the actual problem reveals itself. The fact remains that whatever the real problem is, the valve spring recall has allowed the problem to surface exponentially and is, in some way, directly or indirectly, contributing to the blown engines and I would argue most likely the fires as well.

*Fire. Singular.


The cause of the failures is well documented and not a mystery. It is directly related to improper clean up and/or installation of the sealant. This is why the FA20 engines are having issues whereas the other Subaru engines involved are not since they use a different procedure to change the springs. The failures have nothing at all to do with the changed springs but the method in which the engine was accessed to get to them.
Yes, Toyota did change the instructions after the first few failures but all they did was include a warning to the techs to ensure that they cleaned up all the loose sealant. The issues did not reduce after that since techs that leave a mess still do so even when warned not to.
Trying to blame Toyota directly is grasping at straws.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Your writing style shows incompetence. I’m not even sure what you post is trying to accomplish. Have you even read this thread at all? You do know that Toyota does not own dealers right? You do know what actually causes the failures right? It isn’t the valve springs that’s for sure. If someone wants a legitimate class action it will be related to the insufficient oil supply to the #2/3 rod journals. Those bearing failures are related to a design flaw rather than shity labor by privately owned dealers.

Meh. He is just law firm shill #1. Has not the slightest clue as to what is real.

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

*Fire. Singular.

One internet document fire. There could be more, that did not publicize it online.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gunman

One internet document fire. There could be more, that did not publicize it online.

"Could be" is not "were".
If people are going to rely on the internet documentation of this situation then it has to be considered for both the supporting and the non-supporting points. Misrepresenting the issue will not help with any claims.


There is a pile of info we don't know. Right off the bat we don't even have a basic grasp of how many failures there were where the dealers didn't step up and fix the issue they caused. Many of the people that reported the failure and said the dealer were looking at it never came back and said if they ended up having it covered.

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

"Could be" is not "were".

At least one non-internet documented post recall fire that I know of.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gunman

At least one non-internet documented post recall fire that I know of.

And several pre recall fires. So every fire that results afterward is recall related?
Hell, we never even found out the cause of the reported one. There is a such thing as coincidence and jumping to the conclusion that fire is directly related to the recall could be a total red herring.

[killmequickly]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

*Fire. Singular.


The cause of the failures is well documented and not a mystery. It is directly related to improper clean up and/or installation of the sealant. This is why the FA20 engines are having issues whereas the other Subaru engines involved are not since they use a different procedure to change the springs. The failures have nothing at all to do with the changed springs but the method in which the engine was accessed to get to them.
Yes, Toyota did change the instructions after the first few failures but all they did was include a warning to the techs to ensure that they cleaned up all the loose sealant. The issues did not reduce after that since techs that leave a mess still do so even when warned not to.
Trying to blame Toyota directly is grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by killmequickly

I checked out NHTSA's website for 2013 frs under engine complaints and found 2.


https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2013/SCION/FR-S



You can find them under:


April 12, 2019
Incident Date: March 14, 2019
Consumer Location: San Anselmo, CA


March 12 2019
Incident Date: February 17, 2019
Consumer Location: El Cerrito, CA


I believe the infamous "TheDrive" article is the same person who registered their complaint on March 12 2019 with NHTSA, the incident dates match up as do the complaint information.

*Fires. Plural.

There have been more than one documented on NHTSA

I would also like to point out that Subaru's have been affected as well. You can check out the same NHTSA site under Subaru BRZ and find a handful of blown BRZ engines post recall as well. Also, if you do a quick google search you can find a BRZ's with the same issue as FR-S' post recall.

SO, there may be more to it than failure to follow instructions, an added warning, or shitty labor.

Like ermax stated, it could also be in conjunction with a design flaw, or a design oversight. Maybe the oil channels are smaller than previous designs or smaller than what should be the tolerated specification for this particular engine set up/design which in turn causes high oil pressure when blocked by certain sized particulates wheres if the oil channels were larger the same sized particulates would freely flow to the filter screen?

You are basically stating and in agreement with what I stated earlier. We know the J02 recall and changing the springs is not the root cause, however whatever is being done during the recall is contributing to the problem we now see.

I wouldn't go as far as to state that we know 100% without a doubt the entire mechanism and root cause of the problem, but we have enough evidence to make a few guesses and understand an overview of what is going on.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by killmequickly

*Fires. Plural.

There have been more than one documented on NHTSA

I would also like to point out that Subaru's have been affected as well. You can check out the same NHTSA site under Subaru BRZ and find a handful of blown BRZ engines post recall as well. Also, if you do a quick google search you can find a BRZ's with the same issue as FR-S' post recall.

SO, there may be more to it than failure to follow instructions, an added warning, or shitty labor.

Like ermax stated, it could also be in conjunction with a design flaw, or a design oversight. Maybe the oil channels are smaller than previous designs or smaller than what should be the tolerated specification for this particular engine set up/design which in turn causes high oil pressure when blocked by certain sized particulates wheres if the oil channels were larger the same sized particulates would freely flow to the filter screen?

You are basically stating and in agreement with what I stated earlier. We know the J02 recall and changing the springs is not the root cause, however whatever is being done during the recall is contributing to the problem we now see.

I wouldn't go as far as to state that we know 100% without a doubt the entire mechanism and root cause of the problem, but we have enough evidence to make a few guesses and understand an overview of what is going on.

BRZs are not the other Subarus I was referring to. They have the same engine as the FRSs. The others do not and have not had issues since they don not require opening the engine to the same extent to do the change and there is no sealant involved.


There were at least 30 know spun bearings on the 2013s well before the recall ever happened. These were on brand new unopened engines. I preached then that it was due to blocked oil passages right from the factory but nobody wanted to believe it. Now THAT would be an opportunity for a class action.

[Tcoat]

Well that was a fun read!


There is nothing in either statement that shows the recall work was the cause. It is just assumptions. What both do have in common was that they had been driven hard for a prolonged period at the time the engine went and caused a fire. Not that that is an excuse but would be a good indicator why they had fires and nobody else of the 80 relevant complaints did.


"SEVERAL WEEKS LATER, ON MY WAY TO MY REGULAR MECHANIC TO HAVE THE REPAIR INSPECTED (DRIVING ON A PAVED ROAD ON PRIVATE PROPERTY AT SONOMA RACEWAY IN SONOMA, CA), I EXPERIENCED A BANG AND KNOCK IN THE ENGINE."


"2 WEEKS OF DAILY COMMUTE TO WORK WITH NO ISSUES, THEN ON FEB 17, 2019, I WAS DRIVING UP HIGHWAY 1 FOR A COUPLE HOURS,"


I am amazed that the majority of the complainants seem to think that the NHTSA is some sort of consumer advocacy group that will make Toyota pay. They are not. They are a safety agency and that is all they will address. Of course more complaints will make them look into the safety aspects but that is where it will end.


The number of current investigations into the issue is telling all on it's own.



It was also interesting to read the complainants statements as to Toyota's response when they contacted them. It was almost unanimously "it is up to the dealer to resolve".
Go after the dealer and you stand a much better chance of getting resolution. An initial consult with a lawyer is usually free so at least check it out and don't expect NHTSA or a class action to do the work for you.

[killmequickly]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

BRZs are not the other Subarus I was referring to. They have the same engine as the FRSs. The others do not and have not had issues since they don not require opening the engine to the same extent to do the change and there is no sealant involved.


There were at least 30 know spun bearings on the 2013s well before the recall ever happened. These were on brand new unopened engines. I preached then that it was due to blocked oil passages right from the factory but nobody wanted to believe it. Now THAT would be an opportunity for a class action.

Where did you get your data on the 30 spun bearings pre-recall? I have heard of a few engine failures on new engines but I haven't seen any data or compilation thereof on dates tied with estimated numbers. Based on your last comment are you admitting that there is a problem and an opportunity for a class action? Isn't this exactly what is going on and what DJ72 is informing people about?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There is nothing in either statement that shows the recall work was the cause. It is just assumptions. What both do have in common was that they had been driven hard for a prolonged period at the time the engine went and caused a fire. Not that that is an excuse but would be a good indicator why they had fires and nobody else of the 80 relevant complaints did.

Your argument here is weak, just as you point out that the victims of the incidences involving fire are making an assumption so to are you making an assumption. The only difference is their assumption is based on their first hand experience of the incident and everything that lead up to the fire.

You assume the common denominator is that they were driving hard. But were they?, how do you know? Did you go through the other 80 complaints to see (assume) if they were driving hard or not?

I would argue that 2 fires out of 80 is a very reasonable number. Do all engine failures lead to an engine fire? No of course not, but an engine failure increased the likelihood of an engine fire. It depends on a variable of factors.

On the flip side, it could also be possible that they were indeed driving hard which not only resulted in the engine failure (from either sealant, or design flaw/oversight) but also an engine fire, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by Tcoat

"SEVERAL WEEKS LATER, ON MY WAY TO MY REGULAR MECHANIC TO HAVE THE REPAIR INSPECTED (DRIVING ON A PAVED ROAD ON PRIVATE PROPERTY AT SONOMA RACEWAY IN SONOMA, CA), I EXPERIENCED A BANG AND KNOCK IN THE ENGINE."


"2 WEEKS OF DAILY COMMUTE TO WORK WITH NO ISSUES, THEN ON FEB 17, 2019, I WAS DRIVING UP HIGHWAY 1 FOR A COUPLE HOURS,"

Again, assumptions. The first quote he stated he was on his way to his regular mechanic to have the repair inspected. The fact that he was driving on a paved road at sonoma raceway to get to his mechanic does not equate to hard driving.

In the second quote, the fact that he was driving for 2+ hours, again, does not equate to hard driving.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am amazed that the majority of the complainants seem to think that the NHTSA is some sort of consumer advocacy group that will make Toyota pay. They are not. They are a safety agency and that is all they will address. Of course more complaints will make them look into the safety aspects but that is where it will end.


The number of current investigations into the issue is telling all on it's own.

The number of investigations (it is not "current investigations", it is total investigations, period) means nothing. As you can clearly see there are 4 recalls, and 0 investigations which means investigations does not = problems that are relevant. Just because they did not investigate does not mean there isn't a problem big enough to initiate a recall or a class action.

If people choose to go the class action route, let them, and stop shitting on DJ72 we should be here to support each other and help solve problems not call each other shills and defend companies which in the past have cut corners and knowingly hid information which cost real lives.