Tire choice for dry & cold winter

[Ohio Enthusiast]

I live in the Dayton OH area. Winters here are typically cold and fairly dry - we get 2-4 inches of snow less than 5 times a winter, occasionally up to 8 inches. We also get some ice, but it rarely lasts into the day in a way that interferes with driving. The roads here are well salted and plowed in these conditions.
On the other hand, we also get nice sunny days with temps well above freezing as well as plenty of rain.
This results in mostly driving on dry or wet (but not snowy/slushy) roads during winter, but with low temperatures (temps in the teens are fairly common in the mornings, with highs in the 30s during most of the winter).

My recently purchased BRZ still wears the stock Primacy HPs, but I'm already planning for the next winter.

I'm debating between two options:

1. A set of summer tires and a set of winter tires
2. A set of summer tires and a set of all-season tires

Since I don't need all that much snow and ice performance, I was thinking of Pirelli Sottozero at 205/50/17 (since they don't come in stock size).
For all-seasons I was thinking Michelin Pilot A/S 3+ at stock size (215/45/17).
I'll be using the stock wheels for the winters/all-seasons and RPF1s for the summers (which will be PS4S once the Primacy's wear out).

My goal for the winter is to maximize dry and wet traction for low and high temps, while keeping the ability to navigate snow and mild ice, so I'm willing to sacrifice ultimate snow and ice grip.

Would I be better served with the winters or the all-seasons?

Edit: I forgot to mention that my daily driving (in happier, corona-free times) is barely 8 miles a day of city driving, so my tolerance for granny-driving in snow is pretty high

[DarkPira7e]

If you're going to have two sets, specialize both. Winter tires are uncontested in cold/snow traction.

[why?]

exactly. 2 sets of tires on 2 sets of wheels makes swapping easy. No reason to run no seasons when you can switch.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

In general I tend to agree with you two, but I'm left wondering if winter tires (even performance winter tires like the Sottozeros) will sacrifice too much dry and wet grip and feel vs. all season?

This video may shed some light on this point - Conti UHP all season outperformed the Conti winters (granted, these were not the performance winters from Conti) in cold dry conditions:

.

I know most people have a knee-jerk reaction - winter tires for winter. But for places with light snow and cold temperatures, I'm not sure this is really true. Just comparing the tread patters between the Sottozeros and the Pilot A/S 3s, the Sottozeros have significant siping, while the AS3s look much closer to summer tires.

There are tests were they compare summer tires to all seasons and winter tires in cold temperatures, on dry, wet and snow. Summers outperform the others on dry and are comparable on the wet, down to 35 degrees (and they obviously suck completely on snow and ice) - https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Articl...-at-0c-15c.htm. Now I won't be running summers (since we do get some snow), but between all seasons and winters, will I be giving up too much dry traction?

For reference, everyone runs all seasons here, and I use all seasons for the minivan and had the OEM UHP all seasons on my Focus ST. These all seasons served well on the snow we have here. The only issues I've had is with the steep driveway at home, and that only a handful of times (when I was too lazy to salt and plow it).

[ZDan]

Sweeping generalizations are not helpful. There are some winter tires that actually are very good in warmish conditions. The Sottozeros on my car are very good in these conditions. While the Dunlop Wintersports I used on my S2000 were noticeably deficient in warmer weather dry grip.

Also, there are *some* all-season tires that actually are pretty damn good all-around. And then there are some that suck in winter conditions, and some that suck in non-winter conditions, and of course plenty that just suck. Same as for any category tire.

Long/short: try to get test data (Tire Rack is a great source) for the specific tires being considered. Tire Rack customer survey results can also be helpful here.

If I'm you, I'd consider either running known good all-seasons all year, or combination of summer tires in warmer months and winter tires in the cold months.

But don't assume all tires within a category behave the same, they emphatically do not... Try to gather evidence on specific tire make/models.

[churchx]

My line of thought goes like this: i can give up grip when it's plentiful but want to get every last bit when it's scarce.
In cold and dry on salted roads indeed, true winter tires may perform worse .. but there i have enough grip, i can still go pretty fast and brake in sufficiently short distances. But those few times when there is snow/ice, that single day when road maintainers not quick enough after sudden snowstorm but i still have to get to work in time, when i decide to go to skiing resort, or drive further to visit old folks (living in place with more winter-ish weather), when/if driving on less maintained/cleaned country roads, when have to do emergency steer around or braking because someone on wrong type of tires cannot brake in time, or when one needs to get on iced driveway or drive out of not yet plown yard with snow without extensive shovel use and/or towing .. then, in that worse case scenario, i wish to have any grip possible. Even if >90% of a time/mileage on well maintained dry roads proper winter tires perform worse but sufficiently, i can simply floor less there, go a bit slower in roundabouts.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Sweeping generalizations are not helpful.
...
But don't assume all tires within a category behave the same, they emphatically do not... Try to gather evidence on specific tire make/models.

Completely agree. That's why I gave the specific tires I was planning on - Sottozero 3 and Pilot AS3+. I'm open to other suggestions, of course.

Originally Posted by churchx

My line of thought goes like this: i can give up grip when it's plentiful but want to get every last bit when it's scarce.

Wow, that's a very good way to look at it. It's doubly true with the BRZ since it's a fun car even in low speeds. This makes me prefer the winters even more, well done sir!

[churchx]

Ohio Enthusiast: then again .. there are also such weather conditions that winter tires make no sense. I don't think anybody buys them in cali . It's hard to judge what actual weather conditions are common from forum post, especially when many words like "cold" are often used in subjective fashion. And even harder to draw "exact" line below/above which one should choose one or another. Also for many there might be other cars for use in adverse weather. So my point of view is definitely not final truth, even more so, not one that will fit all. Just some food of thought.
In general, imho you can use both winter & A/S tires and difference might not be that big for any of them to be clear winner .. what you should remember is to NOT use stock primacies in winter, and you should be ok.
Also, winter tires are not that much fun as you may have thought. Though most probably, A/S tires won't be too. To gain ice/snow grip, they are designed with soft sidewalls, many thread sipes, softer rubber = very mushy/laggy steering, high slip angles. I just take it as given to have worse handling feel when change to winter tires in autumn. Then again .. if you have access to ice tracks, it's nice cheap fun to have in winter, sideways type of fun.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by churchx

Ohio Enthusiast: then again .. there are also such weather conditions that winter tires make no sense. I don't think anybody buys them in cali .

Plenty of drivers in Cali need snow tires! It's not all beaches...

[BigTuna]

I live in Cincinnati and I 100% recommend a summer set and winter set.

If you haven't already, find the Cincinnati BRZ/FRS/GT86 and/or Ohio86 groups on facebook. We have a ton of members in Dayton.

[Racecomp Engineering]

It's true that winter tires are sloppy and have really low limits...but did you consider how much fun it is?

In all seriousness, I do change my driving habits quite a bit once the winters are on the car. I don't carve up backroads, I'm relatively careful with on/off ramps, and there are few or no events being held anyway. I do still occasionally have fun at very low speeds because it's so easy that it makes me laugh. It's a very different car with the winters on. We don't get a lot of snow, but I'm happy to go a few months like that to have grip for the occasional snow or ice and to protect my summers from cold temps.

- Andrew

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

It's true that winter tires are sloppy and have really low limits...

Not all of them! Pirelli SottoZero 3 are remarkably responsive and grippy in warm/dry My old Dunlop WinterSport 3Ds had better snow grip, but in the warm/dry they had remarkably poor traction and were indeed less precise-handling...

[RToyo86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Not all of them! Pirelli SottoZero 3 are remarkably responsive and grippy in warm/dry My old Dunlop WinterSport 3Ds had better snow grip, but in the warm/dry they had remarkably poor traction and were indeed less precise-handling...

Interestingly the ice zero FRs are rated as a more sporty tire than the sottozero 3 on their site. I'd have to try them back to back to confirm, Pirelli uses a simple point scale for with their tires. The difference is small 8/10 vs 9/10. The only better performing tire I found for dry use was the Pzero winter, which had very select fitment.

Pirelli had the only winters with a 190kmh speed rating that I could find.

I have a set of them in 16" fitment and I was thoroughly impressed. They felt very stable and predictable in corners, to the point I would attack corners. It also explains why they're so worn after 2 1/2 seasons lol.

[why?]

It is about compound, not tread pattern. Winter tires will always do better in the cold. If the high is still freezing or below winter tires will be better.


Winter tires are not meant for a racetrack, and there is zero comparison between race track driving and daily driving on winter tires. The twins are a dream to drive in the winter on winter tires, everything that makes them great performers in the summer make them excellent performers in the winter as long as snow isn't too deep.