More confirmation from Toyota on next gen 86

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by JesseG

The new styling on the 86 has grown on me. I miss the boxer piston badge on the front quarter panels. LED headlights and taillights are also a nice upgrade.

I’m sure the Veloster N is a fun drive, the mini 3rd door is cool. Throwing extra power at a car has drawbacks though, especially FWD. I think only Honda understands that type of black magic. If the 2nd gen twins get a decent bump in power and torque, and keep it NA I will be happy. (Say 220HP 170 lb/ft). Eliminate the torque dip and it will feel so much better.



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I’ll take torque dip over torque steer anyday. At least one of them is fixable. I had a Veloster Turbo and enjoyed it but it’s not an 86. Like anything there’s good and bad.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I’ll take torque dip over torque steer anyday. At least one of them is fixable. I had a Veloster Turbo and enjoyed it but it’s not an 86. Like anything there’s good and bad.

Me too, I would rather pedal my FR-S than drive the Veloster It will never be an 86

That being said Subie and Toyota could help eliminate the torque dip. I’ve always thought it was an emissions thing, but who knows. The engineers at both companies have forgotten more about cars than I will ever learn.


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[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Me too, I would rather pedal my FR-S than drive the Veloster It will never be an 86

That being said Subie and Toyota could help eliminate the torque dip. I’ve always thought it was an emissions thing, but who knows. The engineers at both companies have forgotten more about cars than I will ever learn.


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Lol. I think it’s emissions thing too.

[Clutch Dog]

the "torque dip" is an engine design issue with intake harmonics.

you can 'tune' it out but it takes specific intake and exhaust sizes and really finite tuning


this is a porsche 718 dyno and you can see even boosted it has a "dip" in torque




flat engines are weird. Turbos can help a whole bunch but you have a turbulence inside the intake that cant be easily fixed with a single intake ported throttle body.

Id like to see a dual plenum crossed intake system with an EL header to prove a point


and the only reason i bring this up as intake and exhaust harmonics is due to a ported Ej251 I had in my 2.5rs with EL headers from TWE and flow matched intake manifold ( not just ported but individual runners where matched)

still had a torque dip

[Impureclient]

Always so many excuses for Toyota/Subaru to not bump power to at least equal of other manufacturers coming out with more power for the same $ we paid.
I mean I'm not trading my FRS in for no Veloster, Civic or any other ugly looking car coming out lately even if they had 400hp and still stay sub $30k.
But come on Toyota/Subaru...just lose more and more customers by not giving everybody what they ask for and see how that goes. For me all it will
take is for somebody to come out with something reasonably sporty looking that wasn't designed by a child and a significant bump in power and I'm out.
If Honda brings back something similar to a S2000 with that K20C1 or some probably better variant, they'll be so many people jumping ship.

[86MLR]

Easy fix is to drop the boxer design and throw a inline 4 under the bonnet.

A little 1.6 or 1.8 - 2.0 with a small snail would do the trick.

Current gearbox "might" be adequate.

[Clutch Dog]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

Easy fix is to drop the boxer design and throw a inline 4 under the bonnet.

A little 1.6 or 1.8 - 2.0 with a small snail would do the trick.

Current gearbox "might" be adequate.

Why stop at a 2 liter?

Bring bacl the big gun 2.5 with some spicey heads? Turn it over 20 degrees like a BMW. Engine to make it fit better in a lower hood line and let it rip tater chip

The current trans is the same aisin as in the turbo solstice and is similar to the s2000 and rx8 transmissions. It'll. Hold a solid 350 ft lbs.

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by Clutch Dog

Why stop at a 2 liter?

Bring bacl the big gun 2.5 with some spicey heads? Turn it over 20 degrees like a BMW. Engine to make it fit better in a lower hood line and let it rip tater chip

The current trans is the same aisin as in the turbo solstice and is similar to the s2000 and rx8 transmissions. It'll. Hold a solid 350 ft lbs.

A BMW engine could be a thing, given Supra partnership

But, to keep the car in its price bracket of "cheap car", going overboard will never happen.

You have the Supra for that, and there is no way in hell they will power up the 86 to be in a similar ball park power wise as the Supra.

Plus 90% of owners want a nice sporty looking car with good fuel economy, cheap rego and cheap insurance, handling and power really isn't a big buying point

If you want a bit more mumbo, do what I did, a AVO turbo does wonders for a little boost in power and still keep reliability

Opinions may vary

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Clutch Dog

the "torque dip" is an engine design issue with intake harmonics.

you can 'tune' it out but it takes specific intake and exhaust sizes and really finite tuning


this is a porsche 718 dyno and you can see even boosted it has a "dip" in torque




flat engines are weird. Turbos can help a whole bunch but you have a turbulence inside the intake that cant be easily fixed with a single intake ported throttle body.

Id like to see a dual plenum crossed intake system with an EL header to prove a point


and the only reason i bring this up as intake and exhaust harmonics is due to a ported Ej251 I had in my 2.5rs with EL headers from TWE and flow matched intake manifold ( not just ported but individual runners where matched)

still had a torque dip

I don’t enough about it to agree or disagree. Why is it that just about every aftermarket UEL or EL with a tune all but eliminates it?

[86MLR]

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I don’t enough about it to agree or disagree. Why is it that just about every aftermarket UEL or EL with a tune all but eliminates it?

NA, they typically don't

Marketing is a wonderful thing

Smoothing does wonders too

In the end the torque dip isn't really a issue, but marketing psychology make people think it is, so therefore it is

[why?]

Originally Posted by Impureclient

Always so many excuses for Toyota/Subaru to not bump power to at least equal of other manufacturers coming out with more power for the same $ we paid.
I mean I'm not trading my FRS in for no Veloster, Civic or any other ugly looking car coming out lately even if they had 400hp and still stay sub $30k.
But come on Toyota/Subaru...just lose more and more customers by not giving everybody what they ask for and see how that goes. For me all it will
take is for somebody to come out with something reasonably sporty looking that wasn't designed by a child and a significant bump in power and I'm out.
If Honda brings back something similar to a S2000 with that K20C1 or some probably better variant, they'll be so many people jumping ship.

Toyota and Subaru make bank selling people what they want. Safe low powered cars that get great gas mileage. Even the 2.5 in the Camry makes only 206 hp and 186 lb ft of torque, and it is the best selling car in the USA.

Originally Posted by new2subaru

I don’t enough about it to agree or disagree. Why is it that just about every aftermarket UEL or EL with a tune all but eliminates it?

Because they eliminate the cat. You gut the cats on the stock exhaust and you'll get about the same thing.

[Riftur]

Originally Posted by JesseG

The new styling on the 86 has grown on me. I miss the boxer piston badge on the front quarter panels. LED headlights and taillights are also a nice upgrade.

I’m sure the Veloster N is a fun drive, the mini 3rd door is cool. Throwing extra power at a car has drawbacks though, especially FWD. I think only Honda understands that type of black magic. If the 2nd gen twins get a decent bump in power and torque, and keep it NA I will be happy. (Say 220HP 170 lb/ft). Eliminate the torque dip and it will feel so much better.



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I personally would love to see 200HP at the wheels. I believe they should keep it NA also. I thought the newer versions would grow on me also, but it really hasn't. The one I saw had no rear spoiler and it looked so bare without it. When they first changed the front grill, it was horrible but looks a lot better now that they added some shape to make it look meaner. The rest of the car, especially the rear, is way to big looking and it ruined the sleekness on the rest of the car. It just does not seem to flow as well anymore. Maybe its just me.

[Riftur]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Veloster N is FWD and weighs 250lbs more. it’s like comparing apples and goldfish

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. My point was, a Veloster should not have more horsepower than an 86 since the 86 is a real sportscar. It just does not seem right. I also strongly believe the 86 should be more powerful than a miata and a civic. It does not need to be the base model but there should be a version we could buy that is. It seems every other car is getting more powerful except the 86.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Riftur

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. My point was, a Veloster should not have more horsepower than an 86 since the 86 is a real sportscar. It just does not seem right. I also strongly believe the 86 should be more powerful than a miata and a civic. It does not need to be the base model but there should be a version we could buy that is. It seems every other car is getting more powerful except the 86.

Historically "sports cars" have always been lower horse power. They were always built to be small, light and nimble not powerful. This whole concept that they need huge horse power came along about the same time that cars that would never have been classed as sports started to be called that. It took the Miata almost 30 years to get a significant HP bump. Comparing others and saying "they should have less" is just playing a numbers game.
Personally I don't care how much power the others have it doesn't make them better cars.