Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?

[accwai]

Originally Posted by ermax

[…] If you’re the type that drives like grandma until you come up to a turn and then speed up to 100 and then slow back down when the turn is over then the Twins are for you. […]

I only speed up into a curve if the tailgater behind pisses me off too much

Originally Posted by ermax

I agree a novice on track could learn quicker in an auto but it has nothing to do with shift times as so many seem to think.

Semi-auto/DCT helps with left foot braking right? That got to be worth something on the track. So can any member with AT here tell us if the AT would allow full throttle/brake overlap? Or does it cut power on overlap like newer VW/Audi/BMW etc?

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by motrek

Cool. That's not me though. If I make a purchasing decision that I end up not liking, that's my fault, and responsibility. The last thing I would do is advertise to the world that I made the wrong decision. So no worries on that front.

Have you read this thread?


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130639

[ermax]

Originally Posted by accwai

Semi-auto/DCT helps with left foot braking right? That got to be worth something on the track.

You can LFB on a manual too but that still has nothing to do with shift time which was my point. I am curious to know if LFB is possible on the auto though. I remember when DBW first became a thing and a lot of manufactures wouldn't allow LFB which pissed off a lot of racers.

Edit: Rereading your post I think you were saying this is an advantage for the MT. If you can't LFB on the auto then for sure that's a big disadvantage.

[accwai]

Originally Posted by ermax

[...] Edit: Rereading your post I think you were saying this is an advantage for the MT. If you can't LFB on the auto then for sure that's a big disadvantage.

Actually I think LFB would be an advantage for AT, if it's fully allowed. Changing gear while LFB on an MT requires shifting without declutch. I believe in the old days rally people do that a lot. I did that once by accident long, long time ago in a VW Jetta TDI. But to me that's a little far out to try doing intentionally.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by accwai

Actually I think LFB would be an advantage for AT, if it's fully allowed. Changing gear while LFB on an MT requires shifting without declutch. I believe in the old days rally people do that a lot. I did that once by accident long, long time ago in a VW Jetta TDI. But to me that's a little far out to try doing intentionally.

True but typically you aren't shifting mid turn which is where you normally LFB. You may heel toe downshift into a turn and then transfer from RFB to LFB but after that there is no need to shift. If you heel toe correctly with your toe on the brake (rather than your heel) then it's fairly easy to transfer your feet without lifting off the brake and unsettling the car.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by Leonardo

Have you read this thread?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130639

Hadn't seen it. Well, mechanical problems with a car are a different issue than not liking the car when it's behaving exactly as it did during a test-drive.

(BTW, I watched some of the video and read some of the thread and agree with a number of other posters, I don't see/hear any problems with this guy shifting into 2nd. But I also searched for BRZ/86 transmission problems and found a lot of threads. Most people seem to just think the transmission is notchy/stiff when shifting into 2nd when it's cold. Notchy I can deal with. Broken or defective transmission, I would be upset about.)

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by motrek

For track driving, I definitely agree with you, there are many more factors vs. how fast you can shift. Actually I think this is an argument in favor of automatics--for 90% of people who drive on a track, I would expect them to get faster times driving automatic vs. manual simply because it's one less thing to worry about and one less thing to screw up. So I would definitely not assume that somebody who chooses an automatic is less "involved" in driving or whatever... maybe they're more involved and more competitive than I am. (I've only ever owned MT cars BTW.)

Most people at track days are concerned with becoming a better driver, not chasing better lap times. Plus, one leads to the other. Getting a faster lap time with a PDK equipped Porsche just means you have a faster transmission; says very little about driver skill and advancement.

Originally Posted by accwai

Semi-auto/DCT helps with left foot braking right? That got to be worth something on the track. So can any member with AT here tell us if the AT would allow full throttle/brake overlap? Or does it cut power on overlap like newer VW/Audi/BMW etc?

AFAIK most newer cars will not allow braking and throttle applications to overlap, so that's out.

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

AFAIK most newer cars will not allow braking and throttle applications to overlap, so that's out.

Like power braking? I have done it in my car to get the wheels to spin.

[WolfpackS2k]

Nah, I think it's different when the vehicle is in motion.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by ermax

Great points. If you only really care about drag racing people from light to light then the Twins are not a good option. If you’re the type that drives like grandma until you come up to a turn and then speed up to 100 and then slow back down when the turn is over then the Twins are for you. ...

When I'm daily driving I'll often speed up when merging to get away from traffic and give myself an extra bit of insurance that nothing weird/unexpected is happening to my side or behind me. I'll also speed up to get past neighboring cars so I'm not driving in their blind spots or directly alongside of them. (More insurance against unexpected events.)

In a powerful car, hitting the gas during such maneuvers and getting pushed back in your seat is pretty fun and satisfying. And of course you're not going to downshift and then upshift a couple seconds later just to get out of somebody's blind spot. I was looking forward to my next car providing the same feeling of acceleration as my BMW, or more, but it's not necessary, strictly speaking...

[motrek]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Most people at track days are concerned with becoming a better driver, not chasing better lap times. Plus, one leads to the other. Getting a faster lap time with a PDK equipped Porsche just means you have a faster transmission; says very little about driver skill and advancement.
...

Either way, I think my point still stands, if you're driving on a track then a manual transmission is just one factor of that driving, among many other factors. Nobody looks at a guy who's driving slow and says "oh yes but he's driving manual so therefore he's a more skilled driver." And nobody looks at a guy who's driving fast and says "it's an automatic so that guy is less skilled."

[motrek]

Originally Posted by 2Wavy

Personally I was a huge Honda fanboy before the BRZ. The 2015 Si that was out when i bought the BRZ was kind of a disappointment so I didn't even bother considering it. Once I bought the BRZ, after the honeymoon period, I did sorta have some buyer's remorse for a while because the car didn't feel all that sporty. What I mean is, I didn't really feel like it was all that different than my old 8th gen civic on the street and I started thinking maybe I should have gotten a WRX or something which would have felt faster. After a while though, I started taking this car into the canyons and started doing autocross, and then I really began to appreciate the car. Now I love it, and I don't plan on selling it until I absolutely need a bigger car (or if Toyota decides to make the Supra in manual and price it reasonably). The 86 and BRZ are definitely cars that shine when you're thrashing them, and I don't think a Civic Si would be as balanced and communicative. If you don't think you're ever going to push your car very hard though, I imagine the turbo engine in the Si would make it more fun on the street. If you want the practicality and peppy engine go with the Si. If you want a car that feels more like a racecar but is a little less practical, then get the BRZ/86. Also, if you plan on modding the car, the 86 platform is probably a way better starting point.

I know the possibility of more horsepower from the factory has been discussed ad nauseum. But it seems to me at this point that we're never going to see it. They just refreshed the cars last year and didn't add any meaningful amount of horsepower. I imagine that if they did add a turbo in the next few years they'd charge many thousands of dollars extra for it. And I guess the next Supra/Z4 will be coming out in the next couple years and that'll be Toyota's answer re: more horsepower. That's kind of disappointing to me considering there hasn't been a meaningful change since the car first came out in 2012 and many (most?) other cars of all makes/models/types have seen horsepower and torque go up by pretty large percentages...

[WolfpackS2k]

Perhaps you misread what I said, because your reply isn't accurate.

[motrek]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Perhaps you misread what I said, because your reply isn't accurate.

I've read it a few times and I guess I can't figure out what your point is.

We were talking about manual vs. automatic and you said this:

"Most people at track days are concerned with becoming a better driver,"

If your point wasn't that improving your skill with a manual transmission makes you a better driver, I'm not sure what you were saying?