And yet another one! :'(

[Skyhound]

IMO, it's the michelins. The FR-S's rear suspension is SLIGHTLY tuned to be more aggressive than the BRZ. With the Prius tires, this can create some really bad moments. I'm pretty sure they did that so the car would slide better, but it's translating horribly on the actual streets. I don't know if they can recall a car on tires, but they probably should. People are thinking they can take this thing to the very limit while it's bone stock.

[Pscylo]

I like that they put the BRZ in the exotic category by merely posting a pic of a wrecked one on wreckedexotics.com

Sucks that people are having this happen......side note and silver lining for the rest of us....part outs?

[Turbowned]

Either way, there's a lesson to be learned from this: don't f%#k around on the street! Find a local auto-x or drift club to get your jollies off going fast and/or sideways. Your car and your pride will thank you!

[Trojan_SC]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

And people claim that the FR-S has "better" suspension than the BRZ - have we seen any wrecked BRZ's yet? I think it's gotta be just a little bit too twitchy for people's own good! Reminds me of the 1991-92 MR2's and their snap-oversteer issues.

Never mind that there are about 4x the number of FR-Ss than BRZs on the road though.

Simple statistics: Bigger population usually means a bigger sample size.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Mr 286

None of those testimonials are empirical data supporting your conjecture that there is an issue with the car's handling dynamics. Fail.

Those are all opinions of driving preference, and those people prefer the balance of the BRZ. That's all.

I almost gave up even discussing this with you when you mentioned the trunk as an issue with snap-oversteer... I'm thinking that getting as close to the 2100 lb curb weight as possible was the major design decision there.

Also, I'm surprised that you being an MR2 owner are not aware that the '91 model year also has a staggered wheel/tire setup. The change was an increase in wheel diameter, and tire width; something that will generally increase the limit on any car. The other notable change was moving the tie rod ends on the rear sub-assembly further outboard to control the toe-in (which resulted in shorter links).

Some other minor changes were that they also thickened the sway-bar links for more stiffness, and rotated the direction that the front and rear sub-assembly bolts to the tension rods by 90 degrees.

I have built and driven many MR2s over the years. The only snap-oversteer issue is inexperienced drivers lifting mid-corner when they bite off more than they should have. I preferred the point-and-shoot handling of the 1991 model. Yes, the 1993+ was more stable. It was generally a good revision to make for the public, but hardly an issue for a good driver. Toyota's UK website says the reason they made the modifications was to accommodate drivers who's reflexes were "not that of formula one drivers." -- Now whether that's the honest to goodness policy; I don't know, but I'm sure that statement reflects the general reception the company had regarding the reports of the car being prone to snap-oversteer.

Excuse me, I shouldn't have worded it as "empirical data". The fact (or overall opinion, whatever) is the FR-S doesn't have the same sweet spot of transition from understeer to oversteer that the BRZ does. I could see that being a problem with many inexperienced drivers, understeer one moment and oversteer the immediate next.

With regards to the Spyder's lack of trunk, I couldn't find any official statement as to that being the case, but take 2 seconds to think about it. Someone loads up their trunk with crap, raising the polar moment of inertia and pushing the weight distribution further back, takes a corner too aggressively and the ass end comes out before they can blink. I spoke to many people about this and this is the conclusion that we came to; it pissed off a lot of prospective buyers that there was no cargo space! I don't think it had much to do with hitting a target weight.

I wasn't aware the 91-92's had a staggered setup; I was under the impression they were 14x7's and 205's all around. I guess I was wrong. I had a '94 Turbo with the revised suspension and wheel/tire combo, and even with grippier tires, thicker sways and stiffer suspension, I was able to get it squirrely at the auto-x course.

Time will tell whether Toyota/Scion racks up enough complaints to warrant a change, or whether they will leave it as is... I hope they leave it, but we all know Toyota's reputation for building "safe" (read: sedate) cars.

[Shagaliscious]

Originally Posted by noAE86

30 years driving experience does not always tally up to good car control knowlage, i know 12 year old kids with 3 years karting experience teach 30+ year olds how to track race, and 16 year old farmers who can slide a 4wd like a finland nutta,

My point I was making was that people commented about it being "a stupid kid who doesn't know how to control his car". In fact it was an older guy who probably was over confident, resulting in the crash.

[BioRage]

Ohai

- Parts
- Insurance Rates+

[TylerLieberman]

I forsee at least 10 more before the end of the year.

Not surprised. An affordable rwd car. Not always kids though. Lets not forget the videos of the middle aged men in their lambos and corvettes hitting trees and hitting stationary vehicles on the road from spinning out.

It sucks to see these things getting destroyed like this. People think they can drive and sometimes wrecking their brand new car is the only way to give them a reality and an ego check.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

And people claim that the FR-S has "better" suspension than the BRZ - have we seen any wrecked BRZ's yet? I think it's gotta be just a little bit too twitchy for people's own good! Reminds me of the 1991-92 MR2's and their snap-oversteer issues.

Have you even driven an FR-S? Based on your commentary we already know the answer. You couldn't be more wrong.

Went back and read the rest of the thread. So Turbowned, you have drivn it after all. I find the car incredibly forgiving and the firmer rear/softer front suspension setup was designed to make the car more playful and enable an average driver to invoke oversteer. I have driven sideways several times on my vehicle and NEVER experienced and uncontrolled oversteer. In fact what makes this car so special is how you can so easily modulate the drift.

Maybe Toyota/Subaru engineers are trying to emulate the Corvair. Seriously, I am highly doubtful there are and stability issues with how the vehicle was engineered. Big companies tend to cover their butt these days where liability is concerned. Based on the development time which was fairly extensive, I'd say they tested this baby inside and out. What they DIDN'T see, was the fuel/ethanol concern in North America. I have every confidence they will fix that too.

I'm betting on excessive speed being the issue in most smash ups.

[drifter]

I believe dash cams should be mandatory in all new FRS/BRZ's. I would like to see videos of these crashes to learn from : )

[track_warrior]

Reminds me of why i posted this thread!!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6018

Anyways im off to go drifting, hope i dont slam into something and sky rocket everyones insurance lol.

[sho220]

Originally Posted by Skyhound

I'm pretty sure they did that so the car would slide better, but it's translating horribly on the actual streets. I don't know if they can recall a car on tires, but they probably should. People are thinking they can take this thing to the very limit while it's bone stock.

It's not the car or the tires. It's the idiot behind the wheel...

[drifter]

Originally Posted by pcasso87

Reminds me of why i posted this thread!!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6018

Anyways im off to go drifting, hope i dont slam into something and sky rocket everyones insurance lol.

Have fun!!, btw, it's cool with me about insurance, I pay about $40 a month :,)

(being older does have some advantages)

[Kearny Mesa Scion]

the guy who drove that car was pushing it beyond the limits of the car. there's a couple of owners since May 28th when they drove off the lot i wondered how long it would take before they get into an accident. the only reason for the rears to break loose without using the e-brake is when the tires lose traction on turn in and when it does break loose as you all know is very linear.

our test model has 1700 miles since the 28th of May. we've had people who have never driven a rwd car but we will also get people who have owned nothing but. we will also get guys that think they know how to drive but we we will get guys that really do know how to drive. usually we spot this when they set the position of the driver seat in relation to the tiller during our switch, but more so when they start driving a few miles. the enthusiast is very smooth with their steering and shift inputs and they'll revmatch along the way, while others are ragged and sloppy. when we do get a competent driver we never shut off all the aides but turn on VSC Sport and within a mile or two of getting used to the car, we have them take a hairpin turn in 2nd that has the tiller turned 180 degrees. then we hit a decreasing radius (right) turn in 2nd heading into an on ramp and this is where we ask them to turn in even more and get on the gas (5-6000rpms) and like clockwork the frs rear will slowly rotate about 10-15 degrees. from the enthusiast to even the guy with the civic manual we can see them counter-correct. we did this with a BRZ on the same turn and we got understeer, we actually had to pitch the brz left and quickly right to get the rear to slide. the third handling test is a medium speed bowl on ramp in 3rd at 45-50mph where they turn up and back in even more where the back will slide a bit on exit and we will see them correct a little when it does. the car is great teacher of rwd dynamics.


i have feeling the e-brake was used on this FRS just based on the condition of the rear tires, or a misjudgement of space. when pushing the limits of any car in a non-track enviroment you have to give yourself enough space for mistakes. also to those that argue that its only happening to the FRS because of the set-up, i disagree. at 7-8/10th you really can't tell the difference between the two, its only when you are at the limit when the understeer on the BRZ shows up and the looseness of the rear in the FRS. also, there are fewer BRZ on the road than the FRS and if you say its the age of the drivers, again i disagree. we get as many guys in their mid 40 to sixties buying the car as we do guys in their mid twenties to mid thirties.