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Old 09-22-2019, 06:25 PM   #1
Milhouse86
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Soooo my motor blew up. Who's got the best short block?

Spent the weekend at Gingermen Raceway in MI. Had a freaking blast all weekend! It was supposed to rain all weekend and it only rained Sunday morning and the track was dry by 1pm.

Everything was going fantastic today. I spent a session with an instructor at the end of the day Saturday. It was raining this morning and only 3 people showed up so we had free reign on the track as long as we did not get too stupid. Had a couple spin outs with my RS4's and one super gentle off track in smooth grass.

When the track opened back up after lunch it was dry. By the end of the day I was on the line the instructor showed me and I dropped 4 seconds off my time. My last run was my fastest. In my cool down lap it felt off all of a sudden. I took it easy and tried to bring it in to the pit but she did not make it. Coming around the back corner my dash lit up like a Christmas tree and then everything shut off.

So we towed it back to the pit and I tried to crank it over. The engine turned on but there was a loud knocking and the crank pulley was wobbling....

The plans to build the motor just got moved up a year or so. I plan on going with a Jackson Racing SC C38. So power levels will not ever be crazy but I want something that can take abuse.

Who should I go with for a short block and why?
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Old 09-22-2019, 06:55 PM   #2
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Sorry for the engine fail. If the engine cannot be rebuilt, I would just buy a used engine and go with this HKS kit and choose a 1.0 mm head gasket for lowering compression slightly to 11.8 if I was aiming for 400hp with JRSC C38 and HBP. I would also change the header from UEL to ACE EL. And ... find a good shop to work with.

https://86speed.com/hks-fa20-2-1-liter-stroker-kit
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Old 09-22-2019, 07:30 PM   #3
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Sorry for the engine fail. If the engine cannot be rebuilt, I would just buy a used engine and go with this HKS kit and choose a 1.0 mm head gasket for lowering compression slightly to 11.8 if I was aiming for 400hp with JRSC C38 and HBP. I would also change the header from UEL to ACE EL. And ... find a good shop to work with.

https://86speed.com/hks-fa20-2-1-liter-stroker-kit
Yah thanks, only second track day too. It was about to click over 100k.

Well that is interesting...

Why do people lower the compression when building?

The JRSC with C38 can use the RP for higher HP correct? Would the (sleeves?) hold that much power? Is this a kit that makes the engine an open deck?

Sorry if anything is a stupid question. I have 0 experience with engine rebuilds.
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Old 09-22-2019, 08:11 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milhouse86 View Post
Yah thanks, only second track day too. It was about to click over 100k.

Well that is interesting...

Why do people lower the compression when building?

The JRSC with C38 can use the RP for higher HP correct? Would the (sleeves?) hold that much power? Is this a kit that makes the engine an open deck?

Sorry if anything is a stupid question. I have 0 experience with engine rebuilds.
Lowering the compression will give more flexibility in tuning the engine at higher boost. ACE header will help with that as well. I have JRSC with stock pulley and I would rather have the high compression. I would only lower compression for higher boost as needed since high compression by itself gives higher power and efficiency. I have only mentioned since your goal of 400 hp is pretty high and requires large boost. 11.8 compression could still be high for that boost. If I were you I would find the shop and start talking with them. Let me call @CSGMike here
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Old 09-22-2019, 08:24 PM   #5
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yay go with jrsc! i have it too. honestly i would find a kickass tuneshop, tell them your goals, and write the check. the good thing is people know way more than us about building engines, its what they do professionally. let them run free with it, theyre artists.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milhouse86 View Post
Spent the weekend at Gingermen Raceway in MI. Had a freaking blast all weekend! It was supposed to rain all weekend and it only rained Sunday morning and the track was dry by 1pm.

Everything was going fantastic today. I spent a session with an instructor at the end of the day Saturday. It was raining this morning and only 3 people showed up so we had free reign on the track as long as we did not get too stupid. Had a couple spin outs with my RS4's and one super gentle off track in smooth grass.

When the track opened back up after lunch it was dry. By the end of the day I was on the line the instructor showed me and I dropped 4 seconds off my time. My last run was my fastest. In my cool down lap it felt off all of a sudden. I took it easy and tried to bring it in to the pit but she did not make it. Coming around the back corner my dash lit up like a Christmas tree and then everything shut off.

So we towed it back to the pit and I tried to crank it over. The engine turned on but there was a loud knocking and the crank pulley was wobbling....

The plans to build the motor just got moved up a year or so. I plan on going with a Jackson Racing SC C38. So power levels will not ever be crazy but could see mid 400s if I keep going with all the supporting B.S.

Who should I go with for a short block and why?
I try to keep away from the FI section and raining on peoples parades but there is no way an FA20 with a C38 is making mid 400 WHP on a realistic reading dyno. I know this from experience, I have asked Jackson Racing along with many other forum members to please produce their 400+ WHP dynos using a C38 and to this day I've yet to see a single one.

My longtime goal was to have a 400 WHP supercharged car, gave up after losing 2 built FA20's to do an LS swap. TVS1320 is the only blower that will get you there but it will run HOT and you will probably want a built motor which is not reliable in my experience.

For those who don't believe please read this thread. 86Joe made 350whp on E85 at 15psi at 7450rpm with the RS Upgrade on Mustang dyno. This is the most you are going to get no matter what the vendors tell you! If you are really worried about numbers go turbo or engine swap. I loved the way the Jackson kit felt and if you are happy with 350 WHP it is a great kit. Aside from having to wait 10 weeks to get a replacement blower if you have a failure like I did.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...=128194&page=3

P.S. If you do decide to build the FA20 please do yourself a favor and do not use Outfront Motorsports.

As somebody who has owned both Edelbrock and JRSC, I really have no skin in the game and it makes no difference to me what people choose. If asked though my recommendation is usually Harrop.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:25 PM   #7
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Mid 400's? Figure in a different trans in your build plans too then.
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:35 PM   #8
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And diff

the subie has a driveline only aimed for about 350 ft lbs max.

built engine. built driveline, different cooling needs..


bud. better off buying a different car. the cheap go to is a s550 mustang gt and get the performance package


did you have an oil baffle and or oil cooler while out there?

and also what is the goal for 400 whp?

have you driven a boosted 300 whp 86? is it just a magical number?

whats the purpose

theres alot going on here and i just wanted to iron out some thoughts.

I have a 200 hp (ish) on e85 with custom tune. and its pretty peppy. did a few track days now with my set up and no issues.

I installed a vortech supercharger kit on an frs back a few years and it dynoed just under 280whp and the meager 255's where NOT enough to keep up with just hammering on it. and it was pretty fun. 400 would make the car un-fun..
it wouldnt be controlable at the limit. and then youd have to change out every single component the manufactuer had designed to make it run reliably..
and again all this money for what? some feel good feels? mustang does that with stock power.

do you love the chassis? I guess if you think the 86 chassis is the best thing since sliced cheese then sure go for it. but its alotta money for a car youll have to redesign for an arbitrary hp goal


you tell me you want a fun rwd car with power the mustang gt is where it is at. and will be had for cheaper than a boosted 86
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Old 09-23-2019, 04:41 AM   #9
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Here is a thread with more information

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2097618
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Old 09-23-2019, 07:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrabTheWheel View Post
I try to keep away from the FI section and raining on peoples parades but there is no way an FA20 with a C38 is making mid 400 WHP on a realistic reading dyno. I know this from experience, I have asked Jackson Racing along with many other forum members to please produce their 400+ WHP dynos using a C38 and to this day I've yet to see a single one.

My longtime goal was to have a 400 WHP supercharged car, gave up after losing 2 built FA20's to do an LS swap. TVS1320 is the only blower that will get you there but it will run HOT and you will probably want a built motor which is not reliable in my experience.

For those who don't believe please read this thread. 86Joe made 350whp on E85 at 15psi at 7450rpm with the RS Upgrade on Mustang dyno. This is the most you are going to get no matter what the vendors tell you! If you are really worried about numbers go turbo or engine swap. I loved the way the Jackson kit felt and if you are happy with 350 WHP it is a great kit. Aside from having to wait 10 weeks to get a replacement blower if you have a failure like I did.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...=128194&page=3

P.S. If you do decide to build the FA20 please do yourself a favor and do not use Outfront Motorsports.

As somebody who has owned both Edelbrock and JRSC, I really have no skin in the game and it makes no difference to me what people choose. If asked though my recommendation is usually Harrop.
I should clarify I do not have a power goal really. If it never hits some magic number on whatever dyno I don't care. Butt Dyno is the only one I care about but I do want to go SC for the power delivery.

I have wanted another project car for years and with a stressful job it's great going to the garage and working on it. So while I want everything functional I am making the car faster more to keep me busy between track days then because I am maxing the car out.

I was thinking about going with the @FullBlown short block stage 1. Holds more HP then a JRSC can produce. Is there any issues going that route? The Stroker Kit looks good but probably out of my budget. I would think that is more cost-effective than someone local that may or may not have the same FA20 experience.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Edited first post to remove 400hp comment for clarity.
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Last edited by Milhouse86; 09-23-2019 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 09-23-2019, 07:48 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milhouse86 View Post
...for clarity.
Google-fu IAG Performance for a built block w/o a core. Strong block is all good but, can still fail to oiling issues.
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:11 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Clutch Dog View Post
And diff

the subie has a driveline only aimed for about 350 ft lbs max.

built engine. built driveline, different cooling needs..


bud. better off buying a different car. the cheap go to is a s550 mustang gt and get the performance package


did you have an oil baffle and or oil cooler while out there?

and also what is the goal for 400 whp?

have you driven a boosted 300 whp 86? is it just a magical number?

whats the purpose

theres alot going on here and i just wanted to iron out some thoughts.

I have a 200 hp (ish) on e85 with custom tune. and its pretty peppy. did a few track days now with my set up and no issues.

I installed a vortech supercharger kit on an frs back a few years and it dynoed just under 280whp and the meager 255's where NOT enough to keep up with just hammering on it. and it was pretty fun. 400 would make the car un-fun..
it wouldnt be controlable at the limit. and then youd have to change out every single component the manufactuer had designed to make it run reliably..
and again all this money for what? some feel good feels? mustang does that with stock power.

do you love the chassis? I guess if you think the 86 chassis is the best thing since sliced cheese then sure go for it. but its alotta money for a car youll have to redesign for an arbitrary hp goal


you tell me you want a fun rwd car with power the mustang gt is where it is at. and will be had for cheaper than a boosted 86
Please do not spread misinformation on these forums.

The factory LSD Torsen diff in our cars is incredible and will easily handle OP's goals.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:47 AM   #13
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Firstly, sorry about your motor. It's pretty odd that it failed at such low power numbers. Weird stuff.

Honestly, I think IAG's stock compression short build is the way to go. Inspect your heads for damage. If all is well, then you can dress the shortblock up with your existing stuff. (https://www.iagperformance.com/IAG-S...g-eng-1052.htm) That will come out to ~$3,500 plus gaskets/oil. That route will basically be 100% free of any machine shop work if the heads are in good shape.

That's the route I would take if you're sure a built motor is the route you want to go.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:17 AM   #14
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ABOVE being said, I'm not always sure forced induction is the solution. At the end of the day, a built motor and a track ready FI setup will cost a pretty penny.

It's worth asking yourself if you absolutely love the platform and want to stay with it, or whether you just want to go fast in which I would recommend a 1LE, C5Z, C6Z, C6 GS, Mustang GT w/ PP and a lot of other cars that will be faster than all but the most extremely GT86's. As an anecdote, gaining 80 whp on my Rotrex NA Miata was worth about ~1.5 seconds at Waterford Hills. In comparison, a $350 spoiler and a DIY splitter costing 1/8th the cost of FI was worth 2 seconds. Just food for thought.
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