Anyone here self-tuning with ECUTEK?

[Tatsu333]

There is a LOT of tuning-related information in this forum, which is AWESOME! I've been reading through many, many threads to prep myself for when I start going down the road of tuning my car, and the info here will no doubt prove invaluable during the process.

It seems, though, that nearly everyone that has gone the self-tuning route is doing so with OFT, rather than ECUTEK, so most, if not all, of the info I've read refers to tuning in OFT.

Now, I get that they're just different tools to achieve the same things, but sometimes it's easier to interpret info / answers / problems if we're using the same tools, and there may be some idiosyncrasies specific to ECUTEK I may run into.

So, before I start tweaking stuff (my ECUTEK gear should be arriving this week), I wanted to do a bit of a "roll call" to see who here is self-tuning with ECUTEK and is willing to bounce ideas back and forth as I go through the process.

FWIW, I'm not a total noob, as I did self-tune my previous car from scratch using a Hydra/Nemesis 2.7 standalone and I have a pretty solid understanding of the fundamentals, but it would be great to have some folks who've worked on this platform / with these tools to refer to.

So...anyone, anyone?

[steve99]

Originally Posted by Tatsu333

There is a LOT of tuning-related information in this forum, which is AWESOME! I've been reading through many, many threads to prep myself for when I start going down the road of tuning my car, and the info here will no doubt prove invaluable during the process.

It seems, though, that nearly everyone that has gone the self-tuning route is doing so with OFT, rather than ECUTEK, so most, if not all, of the info I've read refers to tuning in OFT.

Now, I get that they're just different tools to achieve the same things, but sometimes it's easier to interpret info / answers / problems if we're using the same tools, and there may be some idiosyncrasies specific to ECUTEK I may run into.

So, before I start tweaking stuff (my ECUTEK gear should be arriving this week), I wanted to do a bit of a "roll call" to see who here is self-tuning with ECUTEK and is willing to bounce ideas back and forth as I go through the process.

FWIW, I'm not a total noob, as I did self-tune my previous car from scratch using a Hydra/Nemesis 2.7 standalone and I have a pretty solid understanding of the fundamentals, but it would be great to have some folks who've worked on this platform / with these tools to refer to.

So...anyone, anyone?

Yes i self tune and tune with Ecutek (and oft and tactrix and kess)


If you want to self tune with ecutek using the standard ecu tables then you can do this with a base level ecutek kit and ecu licience


any oft or tactrix tuning info is also relatable to ecutek, but ecutek also add racerom additional features and functions



If you want to use all the fancy ecutek features like flex fuel speed density closed loop fueling multi map tunes then you will also need to but the racrom extension pack on top of the base ecutek kit and liciencei posted up info here


https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117520






ecutek brz tuning guide


https://ecutek.zendesk.com/hc/en-gb/...n-FR-S-2012-on




ecutek racerom guide


https://ecutek.zendesk.com/hc/en-gb/...eatures-Manual

[Tatsu333]

Originally Posted by steve99

Yes i self tune and tune with Ecutek (and oft and tactrix and kess)

You're one of the guys I already know is very familiar / knowledgeable with ECUTEK, and I've found a lot of your info super useful already!

I have the ECUTEK PROECU ECU Connect + Dongle programming kit, license and the RaceROM add-on arriving this week, so I'll be good to go to use all the capabilities of ECUTEK.

[Tatsu333]

OK - first couple of questions now that I'm digging into tuning with ECUTEK:

Cam Timing

For cam timing, the tuning manual says "The base map interpolates against either the Low Det or High Det maps to control the cam angle".

• Should I take this to mean that it will split the difference between the value in the base map and the low/high det map - E.G. if for a given load and rpm, the base map has 30 degrees of advance and the low det map has 36 degrees of advance, will it result in 33 degrees of advance being applied?
  I'm guessing this is the case because they go on to say "We suggest that the values between the Base and Low Det maps are similar" but just want to confirm.

Also, the base map only goes up to 1.0 g/rev of load and 6800 rpm, but the low/high det maps go to 1.4 g/rev of load and 7400 rpm.

• Is the value from the base map at 1.0 g/rev for a given rpm used for that load and above (I.E. it's just extended out) and then interpolated against the low/high det maps, or are the values from the low/high det maps above 1.0 g/rev load just applied without interpolation?
  
• Similarly, is the value from the base map at 6800 rpm for a given load extended out to higher rpms and then interpolated against the low/high det maps, or are the low/high det map values above 6800 rpm applied without interpolation?

Ignition Timing

Reading through how the timing is applied via the base maps, advance #1 map and advance multiplier, it seems to me that it would make more sense from a safety perspective to make changes to the Ignition Advance #1 map rather than the base map, because it could then revert to near-stock timing under knock conditions.

Am I off base here - is there something I'm missing that would make changing the base map(s) the better way to go?

Thanks in advance for any input!

[tomm.brz]

for cam: with advance multiplier over "low det threshold" will use low det map
under threshold will use high det map
Under 0.1 of advance multiplier will use base map
there is no interpolation here

Just follow ecutek suggestion, put high and low der tables the same, ignore base map.. you have other things to think of if you ever get the base map to be used

Values that exceed X axis, will use the last cell value anyway

No actually best and quite efficiente use of timings is to set advance #1 table with fixed values at high load and make the base timing on the main base map

[Tatsu333]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

Just follow ecutek suggestion, put high and low der tables the same, ignore base map.. you have other things to think of if you ever get the base map to be used

Thanks for the feedback!

I figured it would just extend out above / below the range of the axes, but wanted to make sure.

One thing though - the info/suggestion from ECUTEK (from the BRZ-FT86 Tuning Guide) doesn't fully agree with your info on the cam timing, though it is, admittedly a bit contradictory. It says (I've bolded and underlined the relevant sections):

3.3.1. Cam Timing – Exhaust & Intake

There are 3 maps to control each of the intake and exhaust cams. The base map interpolates against either the Low Det or High Det maps to control the cam angle. Which map is chosen depends on the current advance multiplier value.

3.3.2. Cam Timing - High/Low Det Threshold

This is the threshold that dictates which cam timing map will be chosen, below 0.1 Advance Multiplier (engine knocking) the High Det cam map will be used, above 0.4 Advance Multiplier the Low Det cam map will be used (engine not knocking). So 99% of the time the Low Det map will be used. We suggest that the values between the Base and Low Det maps are similar.

I guess I could test the theory on the interpolation of the cam timing by setting a range of cells in the low det table to 6 degrees more advanced than the corresponding cells in the base table (E.G. in the 0.900 g/rev or higher load at 3600 / 3800 / 4000 rpm which is set at 30 degrees on the stock base and low det tables, I could set it at 36 degrees on the low det table instead) and then do a few WOT pulls logging the intake cam advance in that range. If it's 33(ish) degrees, then it's interpolating between both maps, and if it's either 30 degrees or 36 degrees, then I know it's using either the base or low det map values without interpolation...

The only area in my recent datalog where I see sort-of-useful values for this test would be at 0.85 g/rev loads around 1900 rpm, it's showing an intake cam target angle of 29-29.5 degrees, which is much closer to the low det table's value of 30 degrees at 2000 rpm than straight interpolation from the base table's 20 degrees at 2000 rpm would likely end up at.

That suggests you are right, that it is using the values from the low det table only. This suggests that the passage in 3.3.2 is more correct, and that (presumably) only between advance multiplier values of 0.1 and 0.4 will the base map be used at all.

I may still run another planned test to confirm, but thanks again for your info!

[tomm.brz]

ops, yes so maybe they interpolate

the fact is, you want them the same.. one of the goal of the retuning and having 4 different ignition timing tables for 4 different map, is to tune to the limit the timing for a given fuel

you want AM at 1 and you want the fueling to be kept close on target... if you let them the cam change to eliminate knocks you will mess the afr too, it s better to modulare the ignition timing (and maybe also the afr target, oem logic uses the Fuel afr compensation map to è rich in cade of AM drops) for advance multiplier drops

So i see no need to fossilize yourself in this, best thing is to keep them two the same, and base map for cam you can ignore it


if you really care about this thing of having different cams for when your advance drops (that you don t want actually) then take example from oem tune.. they tame down both intake and exhaust at high load both high and low rpm, mid rpm are kept the same with


Honestly no one does this, it s a waste of. time a bit... just put them the same!


Reading again what you pasted from ecutek, it seems confusing what they wrote
Base map for cam is not used at all unless am drops lower than 0.1 so you can ignore it, only low set will be used in practice, and this you can check by yourself by logging your ca and you actually already Did it.. when VVT is enabled 99% of the time low det table will be used


And remember that cam are slow and imprecise and have a closed loop control Active on them... it will always be a bit imprecise, but you can also log the cam Targets with ecutek, looking at the target you will see that base map will be ignored and not used at all

you can find people with similar doubts of yours here https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=1701760

[Tatsu333]

OK - next question, RE: ignition timing:

I get that in an "ideal" world, there should be no knock events ever, and the Advance Multiplier value should be 1.0 across the board, allowing full timing advance to be applied everywhere.

I haven't logged the Advance Multiplier parameter yet (which I can with the RaceROM features enabled; without those I guess I would log Ignition Correction - Coarse and compare the values manually to the Ignition Advance map) to get a sense of where it's at overall on my car, but I wanted to get some opinions before I do, since the tuning guide doesn't really give any guidance on what kind of values I *should* be looking for.

With the Cam Timing low/high det thresholds being 0.1 or below (for high detonation) and 0.4 or above (for low detonation), does that mean that any Advance Multiplier value in the 0.4 or above range is "OK" (E.G. that range of variance allows for differing fuel quality, etc.)?

I know the stock initial advance multiplier value is 0.7, so should I really be shooting for that or better, even if it means reducing the values in the Ignition Advance map?

I've been using the best fuel available locally since new with my car (Shell V-Power Nitro+ 93 octane), so I'd expect that the AM's should be pretty solid. I just want to make sure I'm being reasonable in my expectations of where it should be at.

I know it's really only one data point, so basically useless, but I had a minute to pop out to the car and fire it up just now, and at idle, the AM is at 0.96 FWIW...

All input is appreciated!

[Tatsu333]

A further note - it appears that the tuning guide from ECUTEK isn't updated with the info for the 2017+ ECU's that use the Power AFR Fuel Map tables for WOT conditions (defined as greater than the accelerator pedal % in the Power AFR Accel Threshold table), so some of the table names don't match up, and which map is used for what and when is slightly different, I think.

Basically, for WOT operation, the Power AFR Fuel Map table is what is targeted. The data from the logs I have seem to agree with this.

From my logged data, it seems that a lot of the rest of the time, the "Fuel Map - Lean Closed Loop" table is targeted.

I haven't quite figured out when the base "Fuel Map" tables are used instead, and no idea why in Mode 1 there are two fuel maps, and it's unclear whether the "Fuel Map (Mode 1) 2" map is still used for whatever its purpose is in Modes 2-4.

For now, I think I'll likely just focus most of my efforts when it comes to fueling on the Power AFR Fuel Maps, since I'm initially going to focus just on WOT and/or high load tuning from 3200 rpm on up.

We'll see how it goes, I guess!

[tomm.brz]

There aren't fixed ideal values of ignition timing


MBT changes with afr, cam timings, injection time, injection PI/DI %, combustion velocity, ambient variables, etc.. etc...

So you first get your fueling on par and you put the afr where you want it to be, then you try advance the timing the most you can, until some relevant knock (ak knock/ ap fine on logs) appears and then you roll it down a bit to keep some margin


That way you ll get the most power and most efficiency





When you have 4 different maps with different timings to choose, I don't think it s a smart thing not to shoot for a steady advance multiplier at 1
OEM tune needs to rely on a super reactive advance multiplier that could change anytime, since there are great possibility that someone in the world will put a fuel that is not good enough for the timings of the oem tune
With 4 maps you tune them for a specific fuel and then you ll try your best to always use that particular fuel with them, so you really want steady AM at 1 and the maximum ignition advance you can get, with the minimum knock correction

That requires a fine tuning and many logs
At this point you ll use the advance multiplier as a failsafe for when the fuel you put in is bad, so ignition timings will be reduced





Anyway remember that there isn t stricty only one way to tune, similar results can be achieved with different settings, also you should get Ecutek advices just as suggestions or good start values, not as mandatory rules

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by Tatsu333

A further note - it appears that the tuning guide from ECUTEK isn't updated with the info for the 2017+ ECU's that use the Power AFR Fuel Map tables for WOT conditions (defined as greater than the accelerator pedal % in the Power AFR Accel Threshold table), so some of the table names don't match up, and which map is used for what and when is slightly different, I think.

Basically, for WOT operation, the Power AFR Fuel Map table is what is targeted. The data from the logs I have seem to agree with this.

From my logged data, it seems that a lot of the rest of the time, the "Fuel Map - Lean Closed Loop" table is targeted.

I haven't quite figured out when the base "Fuel Map" tables are used instead, and no idea why in Mode 1 there are two fuel maps, and it's unclear whether the "Fuel Map (Mode 1) 2" map is still used for whatever its purpose is in Modes 2-4.

For now, I think I'll likely just focus most of my efforts when it comes to fueling on the Power AFR Fuel Maps, since I'm initially going to focus just on WOT and/or high load tuning from 3200 rpm on up.

We'll see how it goes, I guess!

Yes it s not super updated
Anyway Ecutek tends to advice to eliminate LTFT in open loop and to scale the best you can the maf/sd... With the newer calibration you get also STFT working in open loop (until a certain estimated Exhaust temperature is reached), so if you want to keep following their way of thinking, you still have to scale WELL the maf/sd and not rely too much on ECU automatic correction




Honestly, any single >my18 i retuned, i just downgraded them to my17 Euro ZA1JK00G calibration... it is more defined and stable

[Tatsu333]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

When you have 4 different maps with different timings to choose, I don't think it s a smart thing not to shoot for a steady advance multiplier at 1

OEM tune needs to rely on a super reactive advance multiplier that could change anytime, since there are great possibility that someone in the world will put a fuel that is not good enough for the timings of the oem tune

With 4 maps you tune them for a specific fuel and then you ll try your best to always use that particular fuel with them, so you really want steady AM at 1 and the maximum ignition advance you can get, with the minimum knock correction

Thanks for that - yeah, that's basically what I was thinking. Dial in one map to get 1.0 AM across the board on the fuel I usually run at home, and then a more conservative map for road trips when gas quality may not be as good.

Supposedly the fuel I use here is pretty much as good as it gets in Canada according to some comparison dyno testing a local Audi tuner did, and right now it's only available in my local region (BC Lower Mainland).

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

Yes it s not super updated
Anyway Ecutek tends to advice to eliminate LTFT in open loop and to scale the best you can the maf/sd... With the newer calibration you get also STFT working in open loop (until a certain estimated Exhaust temperature is reached), so if you want to keep following their way of thinking, you still have to scale WELL the maf/sd and not rely too much on ECU automatic correction

Honestly, any single >my18 i retuned, i just downgraded them to my17 Euro ZA1JK00G calibration... it is more defined and stable

Interesting...I didn't know that downgrading to an older ROM was a possibility.

RE: MAF scaling, my long-term trims are within +/- 5%, so I think it's pretty close. If I do decide to rescale, would you recommend using the VGI tool, or using ECUTEK's procedure of calibrating the MAF using Speed Density?

[tomm.brz]

Originally Posted by Tatsu333

Thanks for that - yeah, that's basically what I was thinking. Dial in one map to get 1.0 AM across the board on the fuel I usually run at home, and then a more conservative map for road trips when gas quality may not be as good.

Supposedly the fuel I use here is pretty much as good as it gets in Canada according to some comparison dyno testing a local Audi tuner did, and right now it's only available in my local region (BC Lower Mainland).




Interesting...I didn't know that downgrading to an older ROM was a possibility.

RE: MAF scaling, my long-term trims are within +/- 5%, so I think it's pretty close. If I do decide to rescale, would you recommend using the VGI tool, or using ECUTEK's procedure of calibrating the MAF using Speed Density?

but the AM doesn t really have anything to do with a "conservative" map, i that case you want something like a 91oct tune, you put 91 and modify the Base timing table with less timings, maybe a bit richer too
You still want AM at 1 in that map, and when AM drops it would indicate that something happened


LTFT like that is ok, best thing for open loop though is to disable LTFT on open loop (as ecutek suggests) and rescale very well the maf after 3V
No need for speed density if you are NA and a standard airbox, maf tuning is stable and precise enough

[Tatsu333]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

but the AM doesn t really have anything to do with a "conservative" map, i that case you want something like a 91oct tune, you put 91 and modify the Base timing table with less timings, maybe a bit richer too
You still want AM at 1 in that map, and when AM drops it would indicate that something happened


LTFT like that is ok, best thing for open loop though is to disable LTFT on open loop (as ecutek suggests) and rescale very well the maf after 3V
No need for speed density if you are NA and a standard airbox, maf tuning is stable and precise enough

Yes, that's what I mean. Aiming for 1.0 AM on all maps, with one being optimized for the 93 octane fuel I normally run and one more conservative (reduced timing advance, etc.) for running with 91 octane fuel. As it stands right now from the logs I've done, even stock would need to be made more conservative to be at 1.0 AM on 91 octane, since I'm not quite there on the stock map with the best fuel I have available.

RE: speed density, I don't intend to run it under normal conditions, since I would prefer the greater sensitivity of MAF tuning. I'm talking about using ECUTEK's procedure to rescale the MAF using Speed Density (here's a link) rather than using the VGI tool / logging.

Interesting that they say in that article that LTFT's within +/- 5% are acceptable, while in other posts on the forum here, folks are saying to aim for within +/- 3% or better. They also say in the article that if you can't get within +/- 5% after a couple of attempts with that procedure, that you can then "move to the other methods of MAF scaling in closed and open loop", which sounds like the method used with the VGI tool, so it may just make more sense to jump straight to that method.

All that said, again, I'm pretty happy with the +/- 5% LTFT's I'm at right now, so likely won't bother rescaling at all unless I add any mods that could potentially affect the scaling (E.G. Grimmspeed intake, though they say it doesn't require rescaling).