FT-86 to be released as a SCION??

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

For me it's the bigger picture that is the concern.

If this car comes out as a Scion that means that Marketing has more influence on development than Engineering. This would set a bad precedent for performance development, where it would become more important for people to BELIEVE in performance than for the car to REALLY perform.

They are trying to create the belief that Scion is a performance brand, by using cars that are completely different to what they actually sell, beyond having the same name. Who knows how they justify this? "People don't ACTUALLY want to drift. It's just cool to watch and be part of the scene, so people will still buy tC's" I don't know... The brand itself is a poser when it comes to performance, and I have no interest in supporting that.

If they start muscling in on what start off as REAL performance cars, who knows what damage they could cause: "Well, since people only want a car that LOOKS fast, we can add in some power seats, full glass panel sunroof, and not bother wasting engineering resources on performance. Better raise it so people don't have to slow down for speed bumps, and soften the suspension for comfort. Now more people will buy it, because it's more like a Camry, and lots of people buy Camrys!"

While I share your concern, accounting affects development far more than marketing. Marketing is a by product of the end result. It will affect what cars are made, but most definitely not how they are made.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

While I share your concern, accounting affects development far more than marketing. Marketing is a by product of the end result. It will affect what cars are made, but most definitely not how they are made.

I disagree in the case of Scion. These cars and the brand did not exist prior to some marketing decision to create a company to directly target youth. Instead of producing interesting, exciting cars like the FT/R-86/S, it was decided to put 'funky' bodies on Echo platforms. Accounting could easily sign off on that as the platform did not need to be developed, and the powertrains were cheap. Then they marketed the living shit out of them.

For the most part I agree that accounting is usually the major downer for cars. But in Scion's case Marketing is king. The fact that it is also supposed to be an inexpensive brand is the worst of everything really. A car company run my marketing douchebags, and cheap accountants. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

(Accountants would probably agree with my theory of Camry-izing the FT/R-86/S too, so yeah, fuck them too.)

[FormulaJDM]

I'd prefer it to be a Toyota, but one positive of being a Scion is no dealer gouging? Correct me if im wrong.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I disagree in the case of Scion. These cars and the brand did not exist prior to some marketing decision to create a company to directly target youth. Instead of producing interesting, exciting cars like the FT/R-86/S, it was decided to put 'funky' bodies on Echo platforms. Accounting could easily sign off on that as the platform did not need to be developed, and the powertrains were cheap. Then they marketed the living shit out of them.

For the most part I agree that accounting is usually the major downer for cars. But in Scion's case Marketing is king. The fact that it is also supposed to be an inexpensive brand is the worst of everything really. A car company run my marketing douchebags, and cheap accountants. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

(Accountants would probably agree with my theory of Camry-izing the FT/R-86/S too, so yeah, fuck them too.)

The Toyota bB and ist would like to talk to you.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

The Toyota bB and ist would like to talk to you.

The funny looking Echos? What would they say?

[Matador]

That they existed more than 4 years before some "marketing decision" was made to build them.

[Lexicon101]

Okay, I changed my mind. THIS THREAD is srs bzns, not the other one.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Lexicon101

Okay, I changed my mind. THIS THREAD is srs bzns, not the other one.

Damn skippy it is! I think anytime me an Matador are debating it is srs bzns.

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

That they existed more than 4 years before some "marketing decision" was made to build them.

Hmmm... I would have thought that they would have told me that they were simple transition vehicles, deemed not worthy of the North American market when they were co-developed with the Echo (JDM Vitz), while development progressed on vehicles specifically designed to target the US market.

It's really interesting that in Canada, while we didn't get Scion (until upcoming fall) we got a 5 door version of the Yaris HB long before the US did. Were they afraid of cannibalizing US sales of 5 door Scions?

[Matador]

^The thing s, the fact that they weren't specifically designed for the tastes of american customers is what made them the initial success.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

^The thing s, the fact that they weren't specifically designed for the tastes of american customers is what made them the initial success.

But that wasn't part of the 'plan'. They were a quick, cost-conscious decision to quickly mobilize the Scion brand until the 'real' Scions could be sorted out. Plus there wasn't a cheap, economical 5-door Yaris which is probably what more people actually wanted. Instead of a 'hip', cheap (but slightly more $ than a Yaris), economical 5-door.

One issue I have is that Toyota North America, with the Scion brand introduction, seems like they may be taking the GM multiple brand path. And we all know how well that worked out in the end...

Toyota needs to stick with building better cars and not worry so much about tailoring new brands to specific demographics.

[Matador]

The major thing is, as I understand, kids these days don't want to be seen driving "mom or dads" cars. I'm not talking about the young enthusiast, who knows about the Supra, the rwd Celicas and all-tracs, the AE-86 and MR-2s. The average driving age teen I mean. The about to finish high school, in college, going into the working world young adult.

Even if Toyota had just said "let's make sporty cars again" It would not have solved their problem of an aging client demographic. Scion was created so that they could get young people into their showrooms, and start them of with Scion and have them grow into a Toyota, Mature into Lexus as they move up the social/financial ladder and then retire with another Lexus perhaps. That's the idea behind the brand. Yes, I despise their marketing tactics, but it is what it is. It irks me because there was potential for something much more than what it is, but the people behind Scion in the USA need to wake up and smell the coffee. It can yet be saved. I think Toyota is fine with 3 brands in NA. At least they aren't buying up other automakers like there is no tomorrow. Daihatsu exists in Japan and other eastern markets, It's not exactly the same idea, but it somewhat servers the same purpose. I think of Scion as a misguided USDM Daihatsu. It could do well with some oth their lineup actually.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

The major thing is, as I understand, kids these days don't want to be seen driving "mom or dads" cars. I'm not talking about the young enthusiast, who knows about the Supra, the rwd Celicas and all-tracs, the AE-86 and MR-2s. The average driving age teen I mean. The about to finish high school, in college, going into the working world young adult.

Even if Toyota had just said "let's make sporty cars again" It would not have solved their problem of an aging client demographic. Scion was created so that they could get young people into their showrooms, and start them of with Scion and have them grow into a Toyota, Mature into Lexus as they move up the social/financial ladder and then retire with another Lexus perhaps. That's the idea behind the brand. Yes, I despise their marketing tactics, but it is what it is. It irks me because there was potential for something much more than what it is, but the people behind Scion in the USA need to wake up and smell the coffee. It can yet be saved. I think Toyota is fine with 3 brands in NA. At least they aren't buying up other automakers like there is no tomorrow. Daihatsu exists in Japan and other eastern markets, It's not exactly the same idea, but it somewhat servers the same purpose. I think of Scion as a misguided USDM Daihatsu. It could do well with some oth their lineup actually.

Why did they need to create the brand, though? I understand the youth not wanting the mommy and daddy cars. But that had little to do with the Toyota brand. It had to do with every car in Toyota's recent line-up being agonizingly boring. Adding the tC as a Corolla coupe and the xB as simply a bB Toyota would've been fine.

I really think Toyota North America went crazy trying to jump on the 'tuner' bandwagon. But the thing is that it originally came up from the grassroots by people realizing potential in existing vehicles. Notably the Civic's potential to use Integra components, and the Supra's ability to withstand ridiculous amounts of boost. These were products that were 'chosen' by people to make a statement about performance, style, whatever. And part of the appeal is that it was rather individual (way back when). When Scion came out, it was during the over-saturation of the 'tuner' market (thanks Fast and the Furious!). And all of a sudden xBs and tCs were everywhere, having been given to 'notable' tuners to create show cars.

I think all this did was maybe reduce the market of Scion of older people who may have wanted an inexpensive practical box of a car. It also turned off a lot of their target audience (like myself) as being completely phony and trying to force or buy their way into my potential sales list. The last straw for me was seeing Scion as the new vehicle to sell TRD branded products. (Also which have sank down to being nothing more than over-priced re-branded components. Nothing like the good old days when they were simply expensive specialized components.)

The thing with youth market is that they can be very sensitive to targeted corporate marketing. Creating an entire brand for it can horribly backfire. If there is a desire for boxy mini-cars, fine. Build them. But what the hell is Toyota wasting all this money on a new brand for? Nissan has no problem with the Cube, Honda with their Element.

If the xB and tC were going to be successful on their own, there was no need for the $$$$$ to be spent on Scion. It could have been spent on the FT/R-86/S instead...

The future will tell if Scion goes the way of Saturn, Pontiac, Plymouth, etc... all branded as being entry-level youth oriented vehicles.

An interesting side note is that Scions may have a bit more 'cool' factor in Canada for the time being, since they are about as common here as some much more exotic machinery. Just from the rarity and mystery factor. 'What's that car?'

[Lexicon101]

Either of you guys want a hug?
If not, how about a nice hot mug of shut the hell up?

Exactly what are you hoping to accomplish with this debate? Neither of you is gonna suddenly go "Oh. Guess you're right. Never mind anything I said for the last four pages." Toyota's not gonna read your forum posts and go "Oh shit, the random internet ranter is right!"

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Lexicon101

Either of you guys want a hug?
If not, how about a nice hot mug of shut the hell up?

Exactly what are you hoping to accomplish with this debate? Neither of you is gonna suddenly go "Oh. Guess you're right. Never mind anything I said for the last four pages." Toyota's not gonna read your forum posts and go "Oh shit, the random internet ranter is right!"

I actually did concede to him on the LFA one.

I believe there is a surprising bit of attention paid to the forums. NASIOC has had a couple high-ups (admins or mods, I'm not sure) invited to the press release of the new STi Sedan.

Besides we need something to do for the next year and a bit (hopefully not 3 and a bit) until this bloody car comes out. Or at least until the next it of news.