Lightest Better Brakes for 17" Wheels?

[bkd705]

Can personally say with the 2nd gen cars, the OEM brakes are not going to keep up if you're fast at the track.

My setup was OEM calipers, Stoptech Slotted Rotors and Hawk DTC-30s at beginning of season then swapped to DTC-60s near end of season.

Been looking heavily for a BBK as after 20 days with about 8 of those being competition days its clear the OEM brakes can't keep up. They don't disapate heat well so you tend to rip through rotors and pads because of all the heat that gets built up.

The AP kit will not be cheaper for consumables. Even with the heat build up causing rotors to wear prematurely and pads to consume fairly quick (went through 3 sets of pads this summer, I would go through the same on my 3600lbs M2C), the price for the rotor replacement and pad replacement on the stock setup is incredibly cheap (in maple syrup dollars). AP, even the sprint kit, is almost double for rotor ring replacements. In reality, they will last longer with better heat management (even the Stoptechs died quick with the aggro Hawks), but they're not lasting double.

However, the theory with the BBK is that I'd get a better brake pedal feel, a more consistent feel (the stock setup would change day to day as the pads/rotors wore), and even a bit of placebo confidence. With the Sprint kit specifically, I've heard mix reviews locally, and as Smoltz mentioned, it might not be the biggest upgrade over stock. I'm debating what to do (BM4 kit is fugly, AP Pro500R expensive, C43 doesn't have a bracket, etc etc).

With all that said, for a dedicated track car, especially if you're pushing for faster times or competing, a BBK is necessary on the second gen cars. I know people got away with stock kit on the first gen twins but I don't think it works well on second gen.

For a daily car that you take to the track here and there, and are a bit more casual or just doing HPDE/autocross. Stick with the stock setup, and replace rotors, fluid and pads. You don't need more than that.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by smoltz

I am curious what your personal experience is with this kit and the OEM setup?

I track my car regularly. 25+ days this year. About midway through this season, I "upgraded" to the Sprint kit from OEM.

Keep in mind that the sprint kit includes braided lines, so some of the feel is coming from there compared to stock if you are going from OEM to Sprint.

I was running CSG C1 pads with OEM rotors on the front and I switched to AP Racing Sprint w/ DS3.11.

I wouldn't say they are worse than the stock setup I had, but they aren't appreciably better either. I didn't say that they didn't work, I just said they're a waste of money.

There is talk of this being cheaper in consumables, but I don't see how that's going to work out. The AP rotor rings are not cheap and there are no third party options. OEM sized blanks can be bought very cheaply. And while the pads are slightly thicker for AP, since the setup weighs less overall you're putting a lot of heat into the system.

The spreadsheet you referenced doesn't list brake setup so that's neither here nor there. A lot of people might run the sprint kit, but a lot of people go to McDonalds everyday, that doesn't mean the food is good.

At the end of the day it's your money, spend it how you see fit but in hidsight I would have done Brembo BM4 or maybe the Stock Brembo setup or maybe AP endurance, but not Sprint. It just doesn't deliver enough value over the stock seutp for the price. YMMV.

Myself and my group of friends have been tracking these cars since 2013, on OEM brakes originally, then made the move to the AP Sprint kit. Of the 5 in our group, 3 are dedicated track cars (not used on the street), 2 are dual use (Street/track). All now use the AP Sprint kit. This weekend will be my 38th & 39th days on track in 2023.

It is important to note that most people that are still running the OEM brakes have also switched to braided lines so that is a moot point. Pad choice and heat dissipation are larger determinations of bite than braided lines are. You didn’t list what rear brake pad you are running, that alone could make a huge difference in bias and actual feel as well. The wrong rear pad choice will upset the balance of the car, not enough rear bite and the fronts are overworked, too much rear bite and the ABS over activates.

AP Kit discs have a larger swept area which results in less heat and better heat dissipation than OEM, the AP Kit also has less un-sprung weight than OEM, both of these are a performance benefit of the AP kit.
As far as costs, once you get past the initial investment of the AP Sprint kit:

Centric Front Rotors (2) - last 1-2 events - Cost $62.96 = $47.22 per event
Front CSG Spec C1 pads - last 5-6 events - Cost $509.18 = $93.35 per event
This averages $140.57 per event

AP Sprint Rotor Blanks (2) - 10-12 events - Cost $409.74 = $37.56 per event
Ferrodo DS1-11 Pads - 5-6 events - Cost $307.77 = $56.43 per event
This averages $93.99 per event

All prices listed above include shipping, # events they last is based on my personal experience.
There are hundreds of pads available for the AP caliper, from multiple companies in multiple compounds to suit your needs and wallet. Also, there are 3rd party options for rotor blanks for the AP kit, Coleman Racing Products rotor blanks are even cheaper so the cost per event drops even more…

While I'm not knocking the the OEM brakes, they are good for what they are, however, they simply do not match the performance or cost benefit of the AP Sprint kit for track use.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by bkd705

Can personally say with the 2nd gen cars, the OEM brakes are not going to keep up if you're fast at the track.

My setup was OEM calipers, Stoptech Slotted Rotors and Hawk DTC-30s at beginning of season then swapped to DTC-60s near end of season.

Been looking heavily for a BBK as after 20 days with about 8 of those being competition days its clear the OEM brakes can't keep up. They don't disapate heat well so you tend to rip through rotors and pads because of all the heat that gets built up.

The AP kit will not be cheaper for consumables. Even with the heat build up causing rotors to wear prematurely and pads to consume fairly quick (went through 3 sets of pads this summer, I would go through the same on my 3600lbs M2C), the price for the rotor replacement and pad replacement on the stock setup is incredibly cheap (in maple syrup dollars). AP, even the sprint kit, is almost double for rotor ring replacements. In reality, they will last longer with better heat management (even the Stoptechs died quick with the aggro Hawks), but they're not lasting double.

However, the theory with the BBK is that I'd get a better brake pedal feel, a more consistent feel (the stock setup would change day to day as the pads/rotors wore), and even a bit of placebo confidence. With the Sprint kit specifically, I've heard mix reviews locally, and as Smoltz mentioned, it might not be the biggest upgrade over stock. I'm debating what to do (BM4 kit is fugly, AP Pro500R expensive, C43 doesn't have a bracket, etc etc).

With all that said, for a dedicated track car, especially if you're pushing for faster times or competing, a BBK is necessary on the second gen cars. I know people got away with stock kit on the first gen twins but I don't think it works well on second gen.

For a daily car that you take to the track here and there, and are a bit more casual or just doing HPDE/autocross. Stick with the stock setup, and replace rotors, fluid and pads. You don't need more than that.

Have you ducted the brakes?

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Opie

Centric Front Rotors (2) - last 1-2 events - Cost $62.96 = $47.22 per event
Front CSG Spec C1 pads - last 5-6 events - Cost $509.18 = $93.35 per event
This averages $140.57 per event

AP Sprint Rotor Blanks (2) - 10-12 events - Cost $409.74 = $37.56 per event
Ferrodo DS1-11 Pads - 5-6 events - Cost $307.77 = $56.43 per event
This averages $93.99 per event

Two comments:

1. How long would DS1-11 last on stock calipers? It seems apples-to-oranges to compare cost of C1 and DS1-11
2. Even with the given numbers, you're saving $50 per event. AP Sprints cost around $2500, so you'd start breaking even after 50 events. If you're doing 20-30 events a year, that'll be quick. If you're doing 5 events a year, you'd probably sell the car before breaking even

[redlined600]

Originally Posted by Opie

............AP Kit discs have a larger swept area which results in less heat and better heat dissipation than OEM............

This may or may not be true. The CP8350/7420 pads are offered in 43 and 50mm heights (or radial depth as some call it). The stock pad is 48mm x 114mm

Front pad Area:
AP- 5160 or 6000mm^2,
OEM- 5472mm^2
Brembo PP - 7611mm^2

[Opie]

Originally Posted by redlined600

This may or may not be true. The CP8350/7420 pads are offered in 43 and 50mm heights (or radial depth as some call it). The stock pad is 48mm x 114mm

Front pad Area:
AP- 5160 or 6000mm^2,
OEM- 5472mm^2
Brembo PP - 7611mm^2

You missed this

Originally Posted by Opie

AP Kit discs have a larger swept area which results in less heat and better heat dissipation than OEM

[redlined600]

Originally Posted by Opie

You missed this

Fair, allow me to correct for total swept area, per front rotor
OEM:40694mm^2
AP:37468mm^2 or 43018mm^2
BRZ PP:54929 mm^2

The mass of the AP rotor is lower than OEM. If you want to argue that there is more vented area (I could see this being likely), and more interior surface area (also likely due to curved vanes), so the rotor cools better/faster, I could believe that.

I'm here to learn and I have a vested interest in this because I'm looking for the best upgrade in the future.

[JRitt]

Thanks for all the discussion on our AP Racing by Essex Kits gents. Don't forget that if you want a slightly larger disc than stock while still not completely breaking the bank, we do have our CP8350/325mm front kit:
https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...t-cp8350325brz


This one has been very popular on the Gen. 2 chassis. The discs are considerably bigger than stock and lighter than the OEM brakes, but has considerably more thermal mass than our 299mm Sprint Kit.


A little birdie told me that there's a sale coming up on these very, very soon...gather your couch change!

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by JRitt

Thanks for all the discussion on our AP Racing by Essex Kits gents. Don't forget that if you want a slightly larger disc than stock while still not completely breaking the bank, we do have our CP8350/325mm front kit:
https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...t-cp8350325brz


This one has been very popular on the Gen. 2 chassis. The discs are considerably bigger than stock and lighter than the OEM brakes, but has considerably more thermal mass than our 299mm Sprint Kit.


A little birdie told me that there's a sale coming up on these very, very soon...gather your couch change!

Will the Endurance kit fit under 17” wheels? Titan 7 TS-5 17x9 +35 to be exact?

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Will the Endurance kit fit under 17” wheels? Titan 7 TS-5 17x9 +35 to be exact?

Print out the wheel fitment template and see.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Print out the wheel fitment template and see.

That would be great if it was something easily found. All the links previously on this board return a 404 error. Alas, I did end up finding it.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

That would be great if it was something easily found. All the links previously on this board return a 404 error. Alas, I did end up finding it.

I found it pretty easily from the link above.

Link above > Wheel Fitment & Installation > Wheel Fitment Template.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

I found it pretty easily from the link above.

Link above > Wheel Fitment & Installation > Wheel Fitment Template.

Like I said, I’d already found it. Oddly enough, when you use the search bar on their site for, “template” it returns zero results.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Like I said, I’d already found it. Oddly enough, when you use the search bar on their site for, “template” it returns zero results.

Most small vendors don't exactly have great internal SEO for their sites.