Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[ermax]

Originally Posted by N234

I think they are required by the NSHTCHTSA (?sp?) to diligently find and inform every owner, and recommended the recall.

From what I can't tell from the registry spread sheet, hundreds of bad recalls out of 100,000 recalls performed which is like less than 1% failure rate...




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That assumes everyone with a failure came here to report it. There is someone who owns an FRS in my area which I pass daily when on my runs and the car literally never moves. One day I noticed it was missing and there was a guy in the garage. I stopped my run and went up to talk to him. My suspicion was right, the car was getting the recall done. He said it’s his wife’s car and it only has 12k miles on it. It was gone about 4 days before it was back in his driveway. About a month later I was on a run and saw the car being put on a tow truck about 1.5 miles from their home. This guy was probably in his 60s. I seriously doubt his wife is on the forums. I suspect the numbers are worse than this thread makes it seem. I don’t plan to have mine done simply because there is a exponentially higher chance of it failing from the recall than it is an actual spring failure (which there are real statistics on). Worst case it does have a spring failure, it’s still covered under the recall.

[Tcoat]

On the flip side we have no clue how many successful repairs were completed as people with no complaints don't tend to say so. The reports of failures could be blown way out of proportion to the successes but we just don't have that data.
The lack of full data can be spun both ways and is not restricted to "there could be more than we know".

[DeadBRZ]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

On the flip side we have no clue how many successful repairs were completed as people with no complaints don't tend to say so. The reports of failures could be blown way out of proportion to the successes but we just don't have that data.
The lack of full data can be spun both ways and is not restricted to "there could be more than we know".

What would the definition of a successful repair mean. Any car with the recall completed that runs somewhat OK for
3 months, 6 months
500 miles, 12000 miles.
If the car had 12000 miles on it at the time of the recall and and managed another 12000 miles prior to failing. They tell the unknowing owner that it was not related to the recall so he wilfully pays and goes on his merry way. Does that mean we should only expect to get 24000 out of a motor that did not have the recall?
What about those folks that had the repair covered by the dealer and the owner never posted on a forum or facebook. How are they counted in the success/failure numbers? Hint...they aren't. Only Subaru knows the real answer and do you think they will tell...no way.
What about people like me, bought a used BRZ so I don't really know the normal/abnormal sound of a well running engine. I get 12000 (6 months) on the car before failing at 85000. Had I known of this this issue prior to buying the car, it would have played a huge role in the decision to purchase it.
Does this mean Subaru thinks the normal life span of their engines is <100000 miles. That's not a very good track record. I drove 70's/80's VW rabbits that had well over 500000 miles on them and still ran well. The bodies rusted and fell apart before the engines died.
Is Subaru saying that technology 40 yrs later is that much worse....WOW. That would be a terrific selling point. Maybe a big poster in the local dealer. But yay...you get 15 airbags and a cup holder!
So many different ways to interpret success/failure. Heck, in school now no one succeeds or fails. Everyone gets a participation award. So maybe Subaru considers a completed recall the same way. Your car participated and we don't track if it failed or succeeded.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by DeadBRZ

What would the definition of a successful repair mean. Any car with the recall completed that runs somewhat OK for
3 months, 6 months
500 miles, 12000 miles.....

Well, therein lies the problem. Folks that have had a failure because of shoddy work have their feedback immediately and know what can happen. Those that are convinced the repair will fail will never be convinced that a later failure of the engine due to an oil related problem is not related to the repair.

I had mine done in January 2019 and now have 1 year and over 23,000 miles on it since. I think it's safe to say mine is OK.

This problem could have just as likely arisen, to a lesser extent, as the cars got older and similar work had to be done that had nothing to do with the valves. Sloppy work is what caused this, and the shops should step up and cover it. This has nothing to do with Subaru itself, except to the extent that the design does not account for sloppy mechanics. Just my opinion of course.

[mswbrz]

Originally Posted by DeadBRZ

What would the definition of a successful repair mean. Any car with the recall completed that runs somewhat OK for

3 months, 6 months

500 miles, 12000 miles.

If the car had 12000 miles on it at the time of the recall and and managed another 12000 miles prior to failing. They tell the unknowing owner that it was not related to the recall so he wilfully pays and goes on his merry way. Does that mean we should only expect to get 24000 out of a motor that did not have the recall?

What about those folks that had the repair covered by the dealer and the owner never posted on a forum or facebook. How are they counted in the success/failure numbers? Hint...they aren't. Only Subaru knows the real answer and do you think they will tell...no way.

What about people like me, bought a used BRZ so I don't really know the normal/abnormal sound of a well running engine. I get 12000 (6 months) on the car before failing at 85000. Had I known of this this issue prior to buying the car, it would have played a huge role in the decision to purchase it.

Does this mean Subaru thinks the normal life span of their engines is <100000 miles. That's not a very good track record. I drove 70's/80's VW rabbits that had well over 500000 miles on them and still ran well. The bodies rusted and fell apart before the engines died.

Is Subaru saying that technology 40 yrs later is that much worse....WOW. That would be a terrific selling point. Maybe a big poster in the local dealer. But yay...you get 15 airbags and a cup holder!

So many different ways to interpret success/failure. Heck, in school now no one succeeds or fails. Everyone gets a participation award. So maybe Subaru considers a completed recall the same way. Your car participated and we don't track if it failed or succeeded.

Those rabbits and the glow plugs tho
ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ .


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[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DeadBRZ

What would the definition of a successful repair mean. Any car with the recall completed that runs somewhat OK for
3 months, 6 months
500 miles, 12000 miles.
If the car had 12000 miles on it at the time of the recall and and managed another 12000 miles prior to failing. They tell the unknowing owner that it was not related to the recall so he wilfully pays and goes on his merry way. Does that mean we should only expect to get 24000 out of a motor that did not have the recall?
What about those folks that had the repair covered by the dealer and the owner never posted on a forum or facebook. How are they counted in the success/failure numbers? Hint...they aren't. Only Subaru knows the real answer and do you think they will tell...no way.
What about people like me, bought a used BRZ so I don't really know the normal/abnormal sound of a well running engine. I get 12000 (6 months) on the car before failing at 85000. Had I known of this this issue prior to buying the car, it would have played a huge role in the decision to purchase it.
Does this mean Subaru thinks the normal life span of their engines is <100000 miles. That's not a very good track record. I drove 70's/80's VW rabbits that had well over 500000 miles on them and still ran well. The bodies rusted and fell apart before the engines died.
Is Subaru saying that technology 40 yrs later is that much worse....WOW. That would be a terrific selling point. Maybe a big poster in the local dealer. But yay...you get 15 airbags and a cup holder!
So many different ways to interpret success/failure. Heck, in school now no one succeeds or fails. Everyone gets a participation award. So maybe Subaru considers a completed recall the same way. Your car participated and we don't track if it failed or succeeded.

With the little data we have we can clearly see that if the work was done wrong the failure will result fairly quickly afterward. It is highly unlikely that engines will last long with blocked oil passages so those that have any amount of miles after the work with no issue are LIKELY in the clear by now.
I know you are frustrated that you happened to fall into the one very small subset of one model year of one engine that had issues but you can not apply the issue across the whole Subaru line up and years. The bulk of the cars effected by this recall (about 300,000 of them) had zero issues with the work since they had a different engine and spring changing method. You are also totally disregarding all documented cases where the engines that failed where the dealership actually DID take responsibility and fix it.
Most of these car may last 500,000 miles and have the bodies rust away before the engine fails as well but we won't know that for another 20 years or so now will we?
For whatever reason Subaru got a batch of bad spring at one point in time. They eventually recognized the issue and voluntarily recalled the affected cars. Some dealers screwed up the repairs on the FA20 engines only and won't take responsibility in fixing it. This is not some big conspiracy of Subaru to produce an inferior product and pawn it off in the unsuspecting public.

[alan.chalkley]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

With the little data we have we can clearly see that if the work was done wrong the failure will result fairly quickly afterward. It is highly unlikely that engines will last long with blocked oil passages so those that have any amount of miles after the work with no issue are LIKELY in the clear by now.
I know you are frustrated that you happened to fall into the one very small subset of one model year of one engine that had issues but you can not apply the issue across the whole Subaru line up and years. The bulk of the cars effected by this recall (about 300,000 of them) had zero issues with the work since they had a different engine and spring changing method. You are also totally disregarding all documented cases where the engines that failed where the dealership actually DID take responsibility and fix it.
Most of these car may last 500,000 miles and have the bodies rust away before the engine fails as well but we won't know that for another 20 years or so now will we?
For whatever reason Subaru got a batch of bad spring at one point in time. They eventually recognized the issue and voluntarily recalled the affected cars. Some dealers screwed up the repairs on the FA20 engines only and won't take responsibility in fixing it. This is not some big conspiracy of Subaru to produce an inferior product and pawn it off in the unsuspecting public.

No conspiracy , but how is it my recall letter was posted after my 6yrs warranty had expired?
Did it really take them about 7yrs to find out that maybe some valve springs might be faulty?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by alan.chalkley

No conspiracy , but how is it my recall letter was posted after my 6yrs warranty had expired?
Did it really take them about 7yrs to find out that maybe some valve springs might be faulty?

I've had multiple recall notices on three cars in the past two years, all built before 2006. (a Honda and two Fords, for airbag notices). It can happen. As you say, no consipiracy, it takes time for them to first see there is a trend (multiple issues), figure out why it's happening (bad batch of parts) and determine if its widespread enough it should be fixed proactively.

In the case of the valves, its not like the streets were littered with failed cars. It was such a low percentage, it may have been 3 years or more before they realized they had a problem.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by alan.chalkley

No conspiracy , but how is it my recall letter was posted after my 6yrs warranty had expired?
Did it really take them about 7yrs to find out that maybe some valve springs might be faulty?

Not getting your point?
The recall work itself is done for free. They extend the warranty on the springs after the work. The failures due to shoddy workmanship should be covered by the spring extended warranty but the dealerships that screw up are saying it isn't their fault so they are not covering it. Ironically enough even the pre recall spun bearing failures where excessive sealant was found were only covered by warranty about 50% of the time. The other cases the dealership always blamed the owner in some way so trying to extend the recall past the warranty period would not even come up.

[bcj]

Toyota sent me another notice last week,
then called me yesterday on the phone to leave a message.
Seems they're getting serious about it.

I was driving and didn't answer when they rang.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

On the flip side we have no clue how many successful repairs were completed as people with no complaints don't tend to say so. The reports of failures could be blown way out of proportion to the successes but we just don't have that data.
The lack of full data can be spun both ways and is not restricted to "there could be more than we know".

Let’s just assume if it wasn’t reported here as a failure then it must have been a success. I still think it’s safe to assume the number of failures is higher that we see here. I mean seriously do you think everyone with a failure reported here? Sure we can’t accurately pinpoint the percentage other than it’s worse then the official stats that Subaru released on actual spring failures.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by ermax

Let’s just assume if it wasn’t reported here as a failure then it must have been a success. I still think it’s safe to assume the number of failures is higher that we see here. I mean seriously do you think everyone with a failure reported here? Sure we can’t accurately pinpoint the percentage other than it’s worse then the official stats that Subaru released on actual spring failures.

Do we know the number of failures that have been reported here? I suppose someone could go through and count them but I don't recall seeing a specific number.

Statistically the sample size here would be valid, if we had true numbers showing the number recalled, the number of those recalled that were taken in, the number of those that failed and the number that didn't fail and the sample was limited to only those online here before the repairs were attempted by a dealer. That would be a valid sampling.

Unfortunately I don't think we have that number, and it certainly isn't random. It is likely there are folks on here that came to this forum only because they had a failure. There are zero folks on here that came to the forum because they had a successful experience.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Do we know the number of failures that have been reported here? I suppose someone could go through and count them but I don't recall seeing a specific number.

Statistically the sample size here would be valid, if we had true number showing the number recalled, the number of those recalled that were taken in, the number of those that failed and the number that didn't fail and the sample was limited to only those online here before the repairs were attempted by a dealer. That would be a valid sampling.

Unfortunately I don't think we have that number, and it certainly isn't random. It is likely there are folks on here that came to this forum only because they had a failure. There are zero folks on here that came to the forum because they had a successful experience.

This ^


The assumption was not that if not reported here it was not a failure the assumption was that success stories are not reported as much as issues.
Again, we can not just take the failures out of any sort of context and say "OH LOOK AT THEM ALL THEY MUST BE A MAJORITY". We just don't know the real numbers.


I guess trying to provide rational thought to an emotional topic is going to doom us to failure!

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This ^


The assumption was not that if not reported here it was not a failure the assumption was that success stories are not reported as much as issues.
Again, we can not just take the failures out of any sort of context and say "OH LOOK AT THEM ALL THEY MUST BE A MAJORITY". We just don't know the real numbers.


I guess trying to provide rational thought to an emotional topic is going to doom us to failure!

The guy was asking about odds of failure. My whole point was that even with the limited data we have we already know the odds are worse to do the recall vs not. I understand the limited data creates a doom and gloom but comparing the odds of doing vs not isn’t based on emotion, it’s just simple logic.