The Sale Of Replica Cars Is Now LEGAL In The US

[Irace86.2.0]

https://carbuzz.com/news/the-sale-of...rce=apple.news

This isn’t a kit that goes over a Fierro, Miata or Corvette. This isn’t a kit like Factory Five that borrows a powertrain, although they could do that like Lotus. This is a production car that could be identical or near identical, $35k or $1.2 million. With 3D scanners, the car could be built to near identical body panels. Could be cool.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

With Lotus now offering the tooling for the Elise for sale and the S1 Elise now being 26 years old I wonder if it will spur someone into producing Elise replicas in the US. The 325 limit actually seems to be pretty nice - big enough to benefit somewhat from economies of scale but small enough not to require a large market share.

My real question is how close of a replica does it need to be? Can the drivetrain be updated to something modern (certainly no Rover K engines or even Toyota 2ZZs)? Does interior amenities need to match the original? Or is it just a silhouette/style replica? How hard would it be to make a "replica" close enough to something real but in actuality have a brand new low-volume car?

Edit: I guess the main "win" here is that replica companies now can offer full turn-key cars instead of offering an engine-less rolling chassis to qualify as a kit car. This will probably benefit things like Caterham 7 and Beck's Porsches which will be able to offer complete drivable cars to customers.

[Irace86.2.0]

325 per year is quite a lot for sports cars. Not a lot for one manufacturer, but a lot for one model if that is all they did. I would like to see some great retro cars with modern engines that are CARB/road legal. Maybe an Elite, old Porsche or a Ferrari GTO or something.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

325 per year is quite a lot for sports cars. Not a lot for one manufacturer, but a lot for one model if that is all they did. I would like to see some great retro cars with modern engines that are CARB/road legal. Maybe an Elite, old Porsche or a Ferrari GTO or something.

So "not a kit car" just an old school body on a modern chassis with an up to date engine, electronics, brakes, etc. Got it.
Fake is still fake.

[Sapphireho]

Kit cars are now legal?

The 3 million cobra owners will now rejoice.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

So "not a kit car" just an old school body on a modern chassis with an up to date engine, electronics, brakes, etc. Got it.
Fake is still fake.

Yeah. A synonym for replica is fake

Manufacturers call ‘old school body on a modern chassis with an up to date engine, electronics, brakes, etc.’ retro cars, but these will be replicas instead of modern takes on old cars. This is worse than retro cars? I don’t know about you, but I would rather have the original look than many of these retro designs. I would especially prefer the smaller proportions.

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Kit cars are now legal?

The 3 million cobra owners will now rejoice.

Gotta read past the headline grabber. 3 million cobra owners bought kits and built those cars themselves or paid a shop to assemble a kit. Some people buy used kit cars. All have to register the kit car, which isn’t as easy as registering your average car. Now people can buy completed kit cars from the factory, which was illegal.

I should clarify: I’m sure most of these cars will be existing kits just assembled by their manufacturer and sold cheaper than the cost of having a shop build it for the buyer, while improving the end product and having it turn key with a VIN and street legal registration. Insurance might be easier to get too.

But what I really imagine is better manufacturing processes being utilized. Why? Because it is no longer necessary to design a car that can be sold as a kit and assembled by a DIYer in a garage. The manufacturer of these cars can negotiate with large OEMs for parts for much cheaper than a DIYer, so a new car with new parts is possible without having the OEM parts center markups. This is why Lotus or Ariel can sell a car with a Toyota or Honda engine without the markups. Build a kit car with OEM parts and a crate engine and all new components, and the cars will quickly explode in price, yet they are still kits, just without the used part from a donor car. If prices go down then features, amenities and quality can go up.

I think the big thing that would be cool is just buying a car that can be registered, financed, insured and driven off the lot the same day. Manufacturers don’t need to do a crash test or jump through as many hoops, so again, quality car go up and price can go down.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

This is why Lotus or Ariel can sell a car with a Toyota or Honda engine without the markups.

Lotus often operated as a low volume manufacturer in the US, but it's a relatively mainstream one in the UK/Europe - it's the differences in regulation between the US and UK/EU the caused them to go after the various loopholes in the US.

Ariel is actually a very good comparison to what the future might hold with this, and also the reason I'm less optimistic than you about prices going down. If an Atom 4 starts at $80,000 with a crate Honda engine and the barest minimum of amenities/features I don't really see how a replica would be much cheaper.

[bcj]

An Alfa Giulia spider with a flat six Honda Goldwing powerplant would be awesome.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Lotus often operated as a low volume manufacturer in the US, but it's a relatively mainstream one in the UK/Europe - it's the differences in regulation between the US and UK/EU the caused them to go after the various loopholes in the US.

Ariel is actually a very good comparison to what the future might hold with this, and also the reason I'm less optimistic than you about prices going down. If an Atom 4 starts at $80,000 with a crate Honda engine and the barest minimum of amenities/features I don't really see how a replica would be much cheaper.

And even then they bowed out like with the Lotus Exige—the real Exige with the Evora rear and 3.5l superchargered V6—that we only got as a track only car. They didn’t want to change it to meet crash safety standards or something. I can buy a motorcycle, but I need to have certain crash safety standards. Cars just need warnings and ratings more than standards.

Well, manufacturers will always charge for performance relative to what’s common, if they can. It is true that low volume is more expensive too, but the Atom is very low. 1800 Atoms produced since production began in 1999, from this 2018 article quote below. Still, a V4 Pangale is $30k, and I see the Atom with its trellis frame, features, performance, quality and motorsport focus similar, and while the Atom is $80k, the Slingshot is $25k. There is no reason why these replicas need to have Ariel Atom level of performance. They could have small engines in small, light cars that are sporty replicas, but not necessarily crazy fast at all.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

325 per year is quite a lot for sports cars. Not a lot for one manufacturer, but a lot for one model if that is all they did. I would like to see some great retro cars with modern engines that are CARB/road legal. Maybe an Elite, old Porsche or a Ferrari GTO or something.

that's really not that much.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yeah. A synonym for replica is fake

Manufacturers call ‘old school body on a modern chassis with an up to date engine, electronics, brakes, etc.’ retro cars, but these will be replicas instead of modern takes on old cars. This is worse than retro cars? I don’t know about you, but I would rather have the original look than many of these retro designs. I would especially prefer the smaller proportions.




Gotta read past the headline grabber. 3 million cobra owners bought kits and built those cars themselves or paid a shop to assemble a kit. Some people buy used kit cars. All have to register the kit car, which isn’t as easy as registering your average car. Now people can buy completed kit cars from the factory, which was illegal.

I should clarify: I’m sure most of these cars will be existing kits just assembled by their manufacturer and sold cheaper than the cost of having a shop build it for the buyer, while improving the end product and having it turn key with a VIN and street legal registration. Insurance might be easier to get too.

But what I really imagine is better manufacturing processes being utilized. Why? Because it is no longer necessary to design a car that can be sold as a kit and assembled by a DIYer in a garage. The manufacturer of these cars can negotiate with large OEMs for parts for much cheaper than a DIYer, so a new car with new parts is possible without having the OEM parts center markups. This is why Lotus or Ariel can sell a car with a Toyota or Honda engine without the markups. Build a kit car with OEM parts and a crate engine and all new components, and the cars will quickly explode in price, yet they are still kits, just without the used part from a donor car. If prices go down then features, amenities and quality can go up.

I think the big thing that would be cool is just buying a car that can be registered, financed, insured and driven off the lot the same day. Manufacturers don’t need to do a crash test or jump through as many hoops, so again, quality car go up and price can go down.

according to this forum post:
https://www.ffcars.com/threads/kit-c...numbers.44832/

FFR has about 60%+ of the total market. They were shipping about 3 cars per day last year, and they are shipping about 4 cars per day now (about 1000+ per year). Since they started about 6?? years ago they have shipped about 2400 cobra kits.

SPF has about 10-12% of market
BB similar & ERA is a little less

'1k+ kits per year' is a long way off from 325 kits-- gotta admit, it'd be better for FFR to design for the 675 home/shop-built sales than the 325 office-built sales.

so assuming the entire replica market is about 2k cars/year, that would put SPF production around 400/year, with BB & ERA 'a little less'. lets say they're hovering right at 325 units/year just for giggles.


this benefits the 2 smaller companies, likely with the 3rd (SPF) holding some meetings to debate slowing production to hover at 325, but not to any serious discount level. most suppliers don't give much of a break in product price until there's commas in the amount of product ordered. they might get raw steel at a $50/car less...

it is a good step forward, but by limiting output to 325 units, it really only affects a few start-up/new companies, and none with any sort of following or serious success-- any company that has any moderate success is going to top out, and naturally be encouraged to either slow sales to keep under that 325 limit, or do things the kit-car way to grow their business.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Still, a V4 Pangale is $30k, and I see the Atom with its trellis frame, features, performance, quality and motorsport focus similar, and while the Atom is $80k, the Slingshot is $25k. There is no reason why these replicas need to have Ariel Atom level of performance. They could have small engines in small, light cars that are sporty replicas, but not necessarily crazy fast at all.

To be frank, an Atom qualifies to your small engine in small light car - the base Atom 4 has the same tune as the CTR of ~300 HP; the performance is thanks to the featherweight. But I agree with your sentiment - I'd be happy with a fairly pedestrian NA I4 sitting in a small light car. Caterham have been doing that for many years (up to and including motorcycle engines), but their not that cheap either.

Hopefully the ability to offer a full car that is easy to register would lure in various levels of cost and performance and we'll be able to find something that we like.

The Slingshot is a bit of an outlier, IMO - an autocycle to avoid most regulations, off the shelf engine (first gen Slingshot used a 2.4 Ecotec) that got replaced by a bespoke one (an in house 2.0 that revs to 8500) that actually lowered the price (base is actually $20k, not $25k). Yet is appears to be aimed at the cruiser crowd wanting something unique rather than driving enthusiasts looking for something sporty. I've often been tempted by it as a pure backroad toy, but I'm not sure if it drives well enough for that. I do see a few driving around my parts and once in a twisty drive in my BRZ I ran into a group of them on a cruise - their pace was agonizingly slow, but I bet it's more to do with the drivers than with the car. Still, it's a lot of fun on paper for the money, I might just be tempted to find one and drive it for a bit if I can manage it.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

To be frank, an Atom qualifies to your small engine in small light car - the base Atom 4 has the same tune as the CTR of ~300 HP; the performance is thanks to the featherweight. But I agree with your sentiment - I'd be happy with a fairly pedestrian NA I4 sitting in a small light car. Caterham have been doing that for many years (up to and including motorcycle engines), but their not that cheap either.

Hopefully the ability to offer a full car that is easy to register would lure in various levels of cost and performance and we'll be able to find something that we like.

The Slingshot is a bit of an outlier, IMO - an autocycle to avoid most regulations, off the shelf engine (first gen Slingshot used a 2.4 Ecotec) that got replaced by a bespoke one (an in house 2.0 that revs to 8500) that actually lowered the price (base is actually $20k, not $25k). Yet is appears to be aimed at the cruiser crowd wanting something unique rather than driving enthusiasts looking for something sporty. I've often been tempted by it as a pure backroad toy, but I'm not sure if it drives well enough for that. I do see a few driving around my parts and once in a twisty drive in my BRZ I ran into a group of them on a cruise - their pace was agonizingly slow, but I bet it's more to do with the drivers than with the car. Still, it's a lot of fun on paper for the money, I might just be tempted to find one and drive it for a bit if I can manage it.

Why is the Polaris Slingshot a third as much as the Atom? An extra wheel and turbocharger doesn’t account for the price difference. Why is a Pangale as or more expensive than the Slingshot or why is a Ducati $10k more than an equivalent Japanese bike? Different components and different manufacturing styles is my guess. I’m just saying prices can skyrocket into the stratosphere, but how low could it go is my focus.

I could see someone using any of the 1.3-1.5 turbocharged engines in a light weight car, or use a modest NA 2L. There will be larger offerings too, but many of these old replicas they could make could be small.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

that's really not that much.

according to this forum post:
https://www.ffcars.com/threads/kit-c...numbers.44832/

'1k+ kits per year' is a long way off from 325 kits-- gotta admit, it'd be better for FFR to design for the 675 home/shop-built sales than the 325 office-built sales.

so assuming the entire replica market is about 2k cars/year, that would put SPF production around 400/year, with BB & ERA 'a little less'. lets say they're hovering right at 325 units/year just for giggles.

this benefits the 2 smaller companies, likely with the 3rd (SPF) holding some meetings to debate slowing production to hover at 325, but not to any serious discount level. most suppliers don't give much of a break in product price until there's commas in the amount of product ordered. they might get raw steel at a $50/car less...

it is a good step forward, but by limiting output to 325 units, it really only affects a few start-up/new companies, and none with any sort of following or serious success-- any company that has any moderate success is going to top out, and naturally be encouraged to either slow sales to keep under that 325 limit, or do things the kit-car way to grow their business.

This is Lotus US sales of multiple models like the Evora and Elise. They sold less than 325 cars from 2010 to 2015, and I doubt it was higher more recently. They sold 1,710 total cars worldwide in 2021 and 1,378 cars the year before. 325 in one year for a smaller manufacturer seems like plenty. Kit car manufacturers like FFR can still sell kits, while also building 325 cars a year. This could get them buyers that would not buy a kit or who don’t want to deal with the registration process of a kit car.

If Lotus wanted to, they could remake the Elite and sell it as a replica, since they aren’t selling the 325 limit in the US or selling more than 5,000 cars worldwide, and that is Lotus, but maybe not if they are a subsidiary. Lotus finances have never been great, but they market themselves against the 911 and Corvette, so I’m sure a smaller manufacturer could do well selling kits, assembled kit cars and nicer versions of their replicas.

https://carsalesbase.com/us-lotus/

As far as prices go, manufacturers seem to be able to buy at wholesale value instead of retail value. A company could buy 3,350 of an item at wholesale cost and save much more than me buying one item at retail. That gives them ten years of product, or it gives them product for five to seven years of cars and extra parts to sell at a markup like OEMs do.

[soundman98]

No company is holding onto 10 years of supply. The warehousing and taxes alone for product on hand drops that concept on its face