TOYOTA GAZOO Racing Presents World Debut of the New JDM GR 86 (Second Gen 86)!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Blighty

lol. I've redeemed myself have I.

Its your endless generosity that is so powerful here. Its truly humbling.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

The car comes with PS4s now, so that's a 'bigger' tire even if the size is the same.

Yes true, but the PS4 tires have been used in our generation too. It looks that somehow manufacturer is stuck into this tire size and setup no matter what the engine output. Of course this is something that can be changed easily and go to a wider tire. I bet some people will do it on the first opportunity, but why a customer should go into that expense at first place?

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo. Screw staggered setups. Almost every street car with a staggered setup has understeer and snaps back when the rear tires grab again. Every staggered German car I've ever had got square tires after a few months, and all of them were better for it. Better turn-in, more predictable breakaway, better transition back to grip, and overall more grip.

*there are exceptions, like cars with ridiculously rear-biased weight distribution, like a 911.

Maybe your experience with staggered setups on German cars, is because Germans will set up more understeer for keeping the car safer for the ordinary driver.

I believe that a squared setup is better for the race track, but for a street car there are reasons going to a slight staggered setup. Not something massive. Maybe in the range of 215/45R17 front and 235/45R17 rear which was used already in the old 86GR car in Japan. About the suspension changes, they played already on how to modify the settings and I don't believe that the old 86GR had issues with understeer. In fact all Japanese reviews I could find, they were saying that it was a more grown up setup. I think the obsession to keep using a squared setup is more a preference of Subaru, because all their other cars are AWD and they are used on this setup. The other main reason should be cost related, which was not the case for the 86GR car and it was more expensive.

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Yes true, but the PS4 tires have been used in our generation too. It looks that somehow manufacturer is stuck into this tire size and setup no matter what the engine output. Of course this is something that can be changed easily and go to a wider tire. I bet some people will do it on the first opportunity, but why a customer should go into that expense at first place?



Maybe your experience with staggered setups on German cars, is because Germans will set up more understeer for keeping the car safer for the ordinary driver.

I believe that a squared setup is better for the race track, but for a street car there are reasons going to a slight staggered setup. Not something massive. Maybe in the range of 215/45R17 front and 235/45R17 rear which was used already in the old 86GR car in Japan. About the suspension changes, they played already on how to modify the settings and I don't believe that the old 86GR had issues with understeer. In fact all Japanese reviews I could find, they were saying that it was a more grown up setup. I think the obsession to keep using a squared setup is more a preference of Subaru, because all their other cars are AWD and they are used on this setup. The other main reason should be cost related, which was not the case for the 86GR car and it was more expensive.

Why not do 235s all around then? The only reason I can see for staggered tires on an FR is if you need more rear grip and you can’t fit that tire up front.

[Lantanafrs2]

I keep checking this thread hoping for additional info

[Bobharp]

I am just incredibly happy that there is another generation.

I want to applaud Subaru & Toyota on sticking to their 'well balanced' guns.

In this age of SUVs and BEVs a lot of bad could of happened.

I'm calling you out Ford and that Mustang Mach E.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Bobharp

I am just incredibly happy that there is another generation.

I want to applaud Subaru & Toyota on sticking to their 'well balanced' guns.

In this age of SUVs and BEVs a lot of bad could of happened.

I'm calling you out Ford and that Mustang Mach E.

Yea I remember all the doom and gloom about how people 'in the know' on the forum went on about how the 2nd gen will be heavier and softer and how Subaru was developing it alone and the car has lost its edge.

FFW and we get a car that weighs the same, with a more powerful NA engine that revs as high (if not 100rpm more), stiffer chassis, but otherwise sticks to the same formula as the old car.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Bobharp

I am just incredibly happy that there is another generation.

I want to applaud Subaru & Toyota on sticking to their 'well balanced' guns.

In this age of SUVs and BEVs a lot of bad could of happened.

I'm calling you out Ford and that Mustang Mach E.

Agreed. I was figuring this gen would make a big change that ruined some of the charm, but it looks fantastic and it appears to focus on fun and being a drivers car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Transport3r

Why not do 235s all around then? The only reason I can see for staggered tires on an FR is if you need more rear grip and you can’t fit that tire up front.

A 235 all around setup will induce an even higher cost for the factory and the customer (initial cost and maintenance cost), will add even more weight and will reduce also a bit the turn-in performance (steering sensitivity). People are usually thinking incorrectly that a bigger rear tire means always less grip on the front tires which is a myth. Grip is not only relevant with the tires, but also relevant with the suspension geometry setup and the percentage of weight transferred front to rear while cornering. Overall, it looks that for rear wheel drive cars and for a certain level of power performance, a staggered setup to be more optimal for the street. The main reason to go squared is for racing, because the bigger the width the better the overall tire temperature stability. However, how many really need this? How many will make more than 5-10 laps per session? Most of them will never go to a track and many of them will not reach this required level of performance from their tires. So, the majority of people will just throw away their money on bigger front tires which are not absolutely needed.

[Sport-Tech]

Fatter front tires will also reduce steering feel, all else being equal. That feel is one of the twins' great strengths, and should not be sacrificed for marginal gains in grip.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

People are usually thinking incorrectly that a bigger rear tire means always less grip on the front tires which is a myth.

But if you put that bigger rear tire on the front as well, you have more grip on the front axle too. All else the same, putting bigger tires in the rear increases understeer. Yes a skinnier tire up front will improve turn-in response, but if you don't have enough front grip to keep it from understeering, your turn-in doesn't do anything for you.

I'm sure the cost differences are there, but once you consider economies of scale, and the fact that you can use the same wheel front to back on a mild stagger, I'm not sure how much you'll actually see.

Originally Posted by Sport-Tech

Fatter front tires will also reduce steering feel, all else being equal. That feel is one of the twins' great strengths, and should not be sacrificed for marginal gains in grip.

You're correct, you probably want to keep the fronts as skinny as you can to preserve what little feedback the electric rack provides. I haven't driven a twin with 245s up front, maybe someone can chime in on the feel.

On a great hydraulic rack with superb steering feedback like an E46 or E9X BMW, I've found the difference in feel negligible between 225-255 tires up front. The balanced grip front-to-back was always worth it over all the downsides. Then again, those racks have a ton of feedback, so losing a little bit isn't the end of the world.

[Lantanafrs2]

..

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Bobharp

I am just incredibly happy that there is another generation.

I want to applaud Subaru & Toyota on sticking to their 'well balanced' guns.

In this age of SUVs and BEVs a lot of bad could of happened.

I'm calling you out Ford and that Mustang Mach E.

Just remember that hybrids and evs lower average emissions across a product line which allows other vehicles to exist.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

But if you put that bigger rear tire on the front as well, you have more grip on the front axle too. All else the same, putting bigger tires in the rear increases understeer. Yes a skinnier tire up front will improve turn-in response, but if you don't have enough front grip to keep it from understeering, your turn-in doesn't do anything for you.

I'm sure the cost differences are there, but once you consider economies of scale, and the fact that you can use the same wheel front to back on a mild stagger, I'm not sure how much you'll actually see.

Let me tell you what the factory did in the 86 GR model with the staggered setup. They increased much more the rigidity at the rear and added a much bigger rear sway bar. This setup was transferring in corners more weight in front and decreased the understeer. I am not saying that this is an optimal setup for the race track, because the front tires will get hot sooner. It is just a solution for street cars if the manufacturer wants to keep a balance with all the others things we were discussing.

[Blighty]

They make the new michelin PS Cup 2 Connect in our tire size.

If you want to add some grip and keep/increase steering feedback.