CAN BUS - for DIY swappers, HELP! Engineers / shops welcome

[Captain Kermit]

Originally Posted by slicktop

I'm having a particularly rough morning so I'm taking this as an attack on my credentials. I'm confident in staying that I was the first to privately attempt a 2JZ swap in the nation. In addition, I have yet to see any swap with fully functioning OEM functions (A/C, EPAS, T/C, dash). I have seen people with bits of each but nothing fully functioning.

I originally tried running with ProEFI because it was cost effective and it was advertised to support CANbus communication. The issue (which wasn't found out until Dec/Jan) was I would need to have a master tuner of theirs pull the code from a functioning OEM car ($750) plus the coding ($2500) in order to implement the CANbus capability. So, I had to spend more money to get it to work - which I decided to sell and swap to a known EMS (was MoTeC, ended up going with Emtron which i'll explain that). It made no sense to pour more money into something which already let me down.

On top of that, the wiring harness was fucked. That was at least $2k down the toilet because of modification costs to the original custom harness. Without going into too much detail, I've put in about $3-4k (EDIT: actually more like $8k) worth of... lets call it tuition, on this build. I'm funding this entire build with no sponsors. Besides one other build, I've spent a lot more money than 99% of the community just to get the swap done and working 100%.

I ended up going with Emtron because it looks like a cost effective solution that the entire community can learn and profit from. You guys (all non-Australians) will benefit from a very new company with emerging capabilities. If I were more of an asshole, there'd be no responding to the hundreds of emails, PMs, DMs, messages (whatever you want to call them from the various websites I'm on). There would be no sharing of information. I talk to people daily on options. Everyone I know spends at least the same amount of time and probably more than I do helping as much as we can. We get to say whatever the fuck we want to because we've put in so much work into our cars with nothing expected in return. We've put up.

I don't know anything about you, your swap or your "credentials". You said it's irritating that people are all of a sudden developing solutions to the CANbus problem. I don't really know where your irritation comes from. It wasn't profitable to develop a solution previously. It is now.

The things you've discovered and shared over the time you've been doing your conversion may be used by someone to make a profit, and that's worth being angry. But being irritated that the free market is responding to a demand - when you're a part of the demand - is ridiculous. If the free market wasn't responding quick enough the option was there for you to pay an extortionate amount of money to a professional but you didn't so you have to wait for it to catch up.

[Fenix]

Originally Posted by slicktop

It's irritating that all of a sudden people are stepping up to develop CANbus solutions when that has been the main hurdle for people wanting to swap it.

I am happy to see there are more CAN BUS solutions than before. Developing software from scratch to work harmoniously in modern sports cars requires time, money and skill. The factory ECU probably ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ uses proprietary software someone would have to reverse engineer. Without significant demand, nobody in their right mind is going to waste company resources bringing such a product to market.

[slicktop]

The irritating part is people have voiced their concern for years (at this point) that their only issue with swapping the motor was having CAN functionality. I've spoken with countless people that said they're holding off until there is a fix.


When I say this, I'm talking about the guys not wanting to spend $6000+ on a MoTeC setup. And even then, I can't think off the top of my head of any privately owned swap car with a MoTeC that hasn't skimped out on anything else.

[DustinS]

So you are upset that it has taken so long for people to start working on this?

[toddy101]

Sorry it has been a while. I have been juggling a few jobs including my other project of getting the FA20Turbo motor to work in a VW (which it does ).
As mentioned previously the prototype pretty much worked apart from the ABS and traction control lights remaining on. Because I am not exactly close to anyone doing a build and do not have an 86/BRZ myself I was relying on the FA20T ecu from the current model WRX, which is so close to being the same, but unfortunately not exactly the same. I have now done some testing in a BRZ and found a few little discrepancies with the data between the FA20 and FA20T, mainly around the ABS functions, so I am pretty confident it will work after fixing these bugs. I now also have access to a subaru monitor tool which will give more diagnostics, particularly with the brake unit. I am also just finishing off the coding to allow the unit to interface a BRZ/86 canbus system to a non canbus engine by having inputs for RPM and temp gauge etc. This system however, will not retain the traction control function.

[slicktop]

Originally Posted by DustinS

So you are upset that it has taken so long for people to start working on this?

Yeah, I suppose you can say that.

[techracer87]

You can build a simple CAN device to read/write to the bus with a Raspberry Pi (Now built into the kernel from a software/driver stand point) or with an Arduino. Monitoring the channels is easy enough but trying to figure out who reads/writes what will be a large undertaking in organization and patience. But certainly possible.

I don't think many of your aftermarket ECU options will work because I don't think they allow 100% of all parameters to be configured when it comes to CAN. Most of them just allow the ECU to output data to a CAN bus, but I don't think you can configure the device ID to match the stock ECU to make it look like the stock ECU is still there. You can do that yourself if you are good enough at programming and building a microcontroller to do that for you.

I would suggest that the easiest way to do an engine swap is to approach it like a race shop would do. Simply strip out the original engine/trans and the wiring and put your own in. You can easily buy aftermarket gauges to replace the stock cluster. You can even hack the AC to work or simply replace it with an after market solution. I don't know how well the stock evap unit will work with another engines compressor anyway, so you might after to replace the whole thing no matter which route you take. I doubt the chassis electronics are all on the CAN network but even if they are they are always be re-wired with the existing switches and relays to do the same job.

[wutsaiu]

Originally Posted by techracer87

You can build a simple CAN device to read/write to the bus with a Raspberry Pi (Now built into the kernel from a software/driver stand point) or with an Arduino. Monitoring the channels is easy enough but trying to figure out who reads/writes what will be a large undertaking in organization and patience. But certainly possible.

I don't think many of your aftermarket ECU options will work because I don't think they allow 100% of all parameters to be configured when it comes to CAN. Most of them just allow the ECU to output data to a CAN bus, but I don't think you can configure the device ID to match the stock ECU to make it look like the stock ECU is still there. You can do that yourself if you are good enough at programming and building a microcontroller to do that for you.

I would suggest that the easiest way to do an engine swap is to approach it like a race shop would do. Simply strip out the original engine/trans and the wiring and put your own in. You can easily buy aftermarket gauges to replace the stock cluster. You can even hack the AC to work or simply replace it with an after market solution. I don't know how well the stock evap unit will work with another engines compressor anyway, so you might after to replace the whole thing no matter which route you take. I doubt the chassis electronics are all on the CAN network but even if they are they are always be re-wired with the existing switches and relays to do the same job.

Unless you're building a race car that is completed gutted I would avoid hacking up the car that much. CAN network controls a lot of things in these cars, easier just to work with it. Your first paragraph is the winner. I personally used Arduino. It's not super hard but people just want to buy something and plug it in. There are a lot of people who desire an engine swap but are not willing to put in the time to learn anything new.

[cf6mech]

Originally Posted by techracer87

You can build a simple CAN device to read/write to the bus with a Raspberry Pi (Now built into the kernel from a software/driver stand point) or with an Arduino. Monitoring the channels is easy enough but trying to figure out who reads/writes what will be a large undertaking in organization and patience. But certainly possible.

I don't think many of your aftermarket ECU options will work because I don't think they allow 100% of all parameters to be configured when it comes to CAN. Most of them just allow the ECU to output data to a CAN bus, but I don't think you can configure the device ID to match the stock ECU to make it look like the stock ECU is still there. You can do that yourself if you are good enough at programming and building a microcontroller to do that for you.
I would suggest that the easiest way to do an engine swap is to approach it like a race shop would do. Simply strip out the original engine/trans and the wiring and put your own in. You can easily buy aftermarket gauges to replace the stock cluster. You can even hack the AC to work or simply replace it with an after market solution. I don't know how well the stock evap unit will work with another engines compressor anyway, so you might after to replace the whole thing no matter which route you take. I doubt the chassis electronics are all on the CAN network but even if they are they are always be re-wired with the existing switches and relays to do the same job.

Everything on the FRS/BRZ works off can......like EVERYTHING !.......What still works only works half ass as the system goes in to fail safe if the ECU bombs for safety reasons....I.e.power steering if your cruising .

[BRZoomTX]

Originally Posted by toddy101

Sorry it has been a while. I have been juggling a few jobs including my other project of getting the FA20Turbo motor to work in a VW (which it does ).
As mentioned previously the prototype pretty much worked apart from the ABS and traction control lights remaining on. Because I am not exactly close to anyone doing a build and do not have an 86/BRZ myself I was relying on the FA20T ecu from the current model WRX, which is so close to being the same, but unfortunately not exactly the same. I have now done some testing in a BRZ and found a few little discrepancies with the data between the FA20 and FA20T, mainly around the ABS functions, so I am pretty confident it will work after fixing these bugs. I now also have access to a subaru monitor tool which will give more diagnostics, particularly with the brake unit. I am also just finishing off the coding to allow the unit to interface a BRZ/86 canbus system to a non canbus engine by having inputs for RPM and temp gauge etc. This system however, will not retain the traction control function.

Who wants traction control anyway in a v8 swapped FRS?

Awesome work man. Looking forward to updates.

[Ross]

When doing these types of things, getting certain info that is available through the factory can bus is nice to have. Not all ems systems will accept certain data over the can bus, hell many have it locked down. If you have a goal of using any this info that is available over the can bus then pick your management system appropriately. If you just want the basic functions to work, an interceptor may be an acceptable option for you.

[slicktop]

So it's confirmed that Emtron EMS fully integrates with the FT86 platform (at least with my 2JZ swap).

I just drove the car again today after @Ross finished up the wiring harness and installed the Emtron KV8. EPS (Electronic Power Steering), tachometer, speedometer, fuel level, coolant temp are all functional. The Emtron will also take care of the traction control.

[slicktop]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxadzLqWLYg&nohtml5=False"]2JZ FRS showing full CAN integration with Emtron KV8 - YouTube[/ame]

[Calum]

How much is the KV8, I can't find a price for it?