Help me decide...

[spectre6000]

I'm in the market for something fun and sporty. I've got an extensive history with fun and interesting cars, and one of my all time favorite anything-car-relateds is a rotary engine. I love the way it just wants to pull to the moon, the sound of one starting up, even just the subtle pulsations of cruising around town at low speeds/rpm. They're glorious. I need a back seat that can handle child seats, and I need to be able to keep it reliable (meaning I can reliably get parts). I've been after an S2 RX8 GT manual. My daughter has health issues making covid a very serious concern, so I'm unable to fly or stay in a hotel. As a result, I've had to put my distance limit at 250 miles (I live in the mountains above Denver), which would be a very long day out and back with a car inspection/purchase in the middle. In more than six months' worth of looking, not a single example at any price or condition has come up for sale. Not only is that discouraging from the perspective of just finding one at all, but S2s are nowhere near as common as S1s, and they have lots of parts that don't interchange. This gives me serious pause in terms of being able to keep the thing on the road long term.

So I've started considering other options. On paper, the Toybaru twins appear to be the RX8's spiritual successor. Very very similar across a dozen metrics. The lack of the suicide doors makes accessing the back seat to get my daughter in a child seat a little more difficult, but probably not world endingly so (this is the second most significant detractor from what I can tell on paper). Price of entry is at least double the RX8, but money isn't really that much of a concern for this purchase (though a new BRZ is the max that I'm willing to spend). Flat fours are also pretty great engines. The new Toybarus share an engine with some SUV, and the SUV is turbocharged from the factory, so I suspect the power deficiency concerns of the first generation will disappear in a hurry. Reliability, parts availability, and even just raw numbers on the road for scavenging parts way down the road put the vote in the Toybaru's corner all day long. Never mind Toyota/Subaru's overall track record for reliability across the board.

But I love rotary engines... The RX8 is at most half the price, better rear seat access, and rotary. Did I mention rotary?

I know the bias here will lean hard in the Toybaru direction, but talk me into/out of whichever you way feel the stronger case can be made. Unless you also have extensive rotary experience, please don't with the "apex seals" or "oil consumption" or whatever comments.

[Tcoat]

The new ones share an engine block with a SUV but the similarities end there.
The back seat will totally suck for getting a small child into a car seat.
The RX8 will be at least 10 years old and either very expensive (for a 10 year old car) or beat to crap.
You removed much of the RX8 negative points by saying not to talk about their biggest drawbacks.
People that live at altitude have complained bitterly about the Twins NA performance since day one. I doubt that will change much with the second gen.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The new ones share an engine block with a SUV but the similarities end there.
The back seat will totally suck for getting a small child into a car seat.
The RX8 will be at least 10 years old and either very expensive (for a 10 year old car) or beat to crap.
You removed much of the RX8 negative points by saying not to talk about their biggest drawbacks.
People that live at altitude have complained bitterly about the Twins NA performance since day one. I doubt that will change much with the second gen.

^This. You'll lose minimum of 5hp in high altitude. Where I live, I feel like I've lost near 10hp.

Just test drive it and see if it's worth it or not. You prob not able to test drive 2nd gen, but you can def find 1st gen selling around both dealer and private. Either way interior is same, so you get the feel of the interior sizing.

[bcj]

The 2.4L will be a better fit for Denver than the 2L 1Gen. More grunt from the get-go.
It won't wind up like the rotary, but it will have much better low rpm cruising power.
I'm sure someone will stuff turbos in it, but it will take extensive plumbing, wiring and CPU changes to make that happen.
More than I'd be comfortable with for a dealer serviceable daily driver.

The back seat access is a problem.
The front seats don't go back to where they came from with memory gizmos and extra hardware, so you might want to set visual markings on the body and seats.
Stowing a child back there twice a day or more may be the most problematic part.
The car itself is "simply joyful", so there's that as well.
I prefer less weight to creature-features than many people are willing to deal with.

I had an Alfa GTV2000 back in the 80's for seven years, and the twins are the first new vehicle that comes close to it.
I liked everything about the GTV except the extremely strong clutch action. The twins fixed that just right.

[mike2100]

I've had two RX-8s (2004 Sport Manual and 2005 GT Manual), a 2013 FR-S MT, and a 2018 BRZ MT with PP.

Let me start with the X-factor. The Toyobarus are not really the spiritual successor of the RX-8. I believe that is your hope, but unfortunately it's not true. The RX-8 feels more like a big Miata then the twins, which is a good thing. It's got a very stiff chassis with high torsional rigidity, allowing for softer springs. Combined with a double wishbone up front and it's hugely comfortable and compliant on the road, but with very good, fun, and predictable handling.
Second, the RX-8's rotary simply sings. There is nothing else like it. I haven't driven the 22 BRZ with the 2.4L yet (it's on order), but the 1st gen 2.0 sounds pretty rough.

Also, the RX-8's back seat is definitely easier to get into. I'm not sure that a carseat would fit better though because the hump between the two back seats is pretty big. And the suicide doors have pretty thick arm rests. I would definitely recommend test-fitting the car seat before buying.

All that said, the RX-8 is definitely more enjoyable to drive than both the FR-S and 1st gen BRZ. So why don't I still own one? A few reasons:
1. I like new cars. Any used example is going to have some miles on it. Eventually, it's going to need a rebuild, so you'll need to find a reliable rotary mechanic. I don't know any.
2. I like to tinker and modify my cars. Wasn't really worth modifying the engine on the RX-8. Nothing improved horsepower. You could go turbo, but would need a reliable rotary tuner. I don't know any.
3. The RX-8 gets pretty bad gas mileage and burns oil. I typically got 17-18 mpg and was always checking the oil level (annoying) and kept a quart of oil in the trunk.

Like I said, I haven't driven the 2nd gen BRZ yet. I understand it's more refined. Perhaps the chassis rigidity increase helped with that. But MacPherson struts are definitely very different in feel than double wishbone. However, if you've never driven a double wishbone car then you won't know what you're missing.

[spectre6000]

Good to know about the internals being different. I hadn't found anything about that yet (does anyone have a link to any deep dive into the engine?), but it seemed like the most likely scenario (I've definitely gotten the feeling over the years that there's an intentional effort to prevent making a tunable car for emissions or liability or whatever reasons). That's a bummer. Kinda tosses that idea out the window. Still, I like building engines (part of why the typical rotary rebuild schedule is more a feature than a bug in my book), so it wouldn't be the end of the world if I got to break it down that far... Definitely more cost and trouble for the gain though...

Even without an easy means of FI, the aftermarket for the RX8 is on its way out, and the BRZ is barely getting started... Pure numbers and longevity will make the BRZ the darling child between the two for modifications. That said, the RX8 was very well done by Mazda from the get go, and I honestly don't think I'd really want to do anything other than keep it stock. I live in a slow car fast place, so both of these cars check that box handily regardless.

The market right now has every 10 year old car being pretty stupidly priced. The RX8s are affected, but not nearly as bad as most. Another car I considered/haven't completely ruled out maybe is a BMW 335i. In that, oil consumption is a bug rather than a feature, and not one easily dealt with. Oil consumption is one of my biggest pet peeves with cars, which may make the RX8 seem like a bad idea, but then you realize it's intentional and beneficial, and it's not really a bug any more. At any rate, the BMW is kind of the middle path price wise. Make MUCH more power, and is reputed to be the next tuning darling, and a real back seat with full back doors, but BMWs are pretty much never broken in by anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy, and seem to typically burn more oil than even a sick rotary...

The oxygen delta is ~3%/1K' above sea level; power decreases are not as linear or predictable from platform to platform. I live at 7k', and my typical range is 5k'-8.5k' (carbs are challenging). One thought I had recently from something someone said on a different forum re: NA at altitude is the relative difference in performance characteristics of the two engines. The flat four torque/hp rise quickly, then plateau (a common way for modern engine manufacturers to tune) whereas the rotary is an approximate 1:1 linear increase from idle to redline. At altitude, the flat four will have a lower plateau in each gear, and that will feel just like less power, period (I'll almost certainly never drive it below 5k', so I'll likely never notice). The rotary, on the other hand, will just need to be at a higher rpm to achieve the same power; this power deficit along that curve can be effectively dealt with simply through gearing. The S2 I'm after has lower gearing by design. I haven't done the math (I don't know exactly what the differences are) may just put it closer to an S1 in terms of perceived power. Even if not, I feel like the power deficit may be perceptible, but may be masked. This is a fresh thought, and I may change my mind after I've had some time to rub brain cells on it.

This will not be a daily driver. Long story short, my wife and I will be sharing her JKUR as our daily, and this will be a runabout and occasional track car when conditions permit. I live on one of those famous canyon roads that everyone comes to drive from a long way away, and it's kinda silly not to enjoy that at least a little. Also re: dealer service, I don't think I even trust dealers to do oil changes at this point... If there's a recall or warranty repair, I might let them do it if the parts are expensive, but service techs don't give a shit about my car or anyone else's as long as they can log the hours for the job and get to the next one.

[evanescent03]

i'd wait for a civic type R .. super fun and way better for a growing kiddo. my boys are 7 and 9 ... although they technically can climb in the back for a short ride they complain a lot. i would never want to put a rear facing or even a full sized front facing carseat back there. so tight. and forget about any length of drive with my wife up front also (usually my 7 & 9 yo sit passenger side front/back just to drive across town at 25mph).

obviously a lot of this comes down to your preference, but there are fun cars that are probably better dual-purpose for fun and family duties, imo. Civic Type R & f80 M3 are my top two picks for fun to drive, quick, manual option, 4 door family utility.

good luck with your search!

[eyeballs]

I own a '22 brz and sold my s2 sport rx8 about 2.5 yrs ago. I also had the opportunity to drive back to back on a windy mountain road a 1st gen brz and my rx8 (winner - rx8). RX8 interior is way more comfy and spacious, front and back. An adult can sit in the back of an rx8, and children do not complain (and they love the suicide doors). Neither of my small kids (50-60 lbs) enjoys the back seat of the brz. It's a mild annoyance to open both doors on the rx8 passenger side if nobody is in the front seat. Both are great on long drives with stock suspension. Haven't had the brz on track yet (only ice/snow course) but I found the rx8 deceivingly fast in stock form (though I had just come from a track prepped miata with stiff susp and no ac/ps/etc). For track work it's best to pull the cat but then it smells, but shoots flames. In warm weather coolant temps can be an issue on track in the rx8, and I had to keep the gas tank full to not get fuel starvation on long left sweepers (though that fuel thing seems like an odd isolated issue to my personal car). Oil temp issue seems common on stock twins. As long as you're OK pre-mixing at fuel fillups and can be mindful of the flooding issue, I say the rx-8 is a no brainer. I would have kept mine if I knew there was track stuff nearby when I moved (it was a salvage title with 30k miles that looked nearly showroom mint inside and out that I picked up for a little over $5k in FL and required very little work).

[eyeballs]

Oh, and don't forget the encouraging fact that it's good maintenance to rev out the rotary on every drive.

[soundman98]

Honestly, it's sounds to me like you need a Camry but just can't admit to it. Newer models are looking pretty sporty, no idea on driving feel though.

I believe making any human being get in the back seat of the 86 violates parts of the Geneva Convention.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by spectre6000

I'm in the market for something fun and sporty. I've got an extensive history with fun and interesting cars, and one of my all time favorite anything-car-relateds is a rotary engine. I love the way it just wants to pull to the moon, the sound of one starting up, even just the subtle pulsations of cruising around town at low speeds/rpm. They're glorious. I need a back seat that can handle child seats, and I need to be able to keep it reliable (meaning I can reliably get parts). I've been after an S2 RX8 GT manual. My daughter has health issues making covid a very serious concern, so I'm unable to fly or stay in a hotel. As a result, I've had to put my distance limit at 250 miles (I live in the mountains above Denver), which would be a very long day out and back with a car inspection/purchase in the middle. In more than six months' worth of looking, not a single example at any price or condition has come up for sale. Not only is that discouraging from the perspective of just finding one at all, but S2s are nowhere near as common as S1s, and they have lots of parts that don't interchange. This gives me serious pause in terms of being able to keep the thing on the road long term.

So I've started considering other options. On paper, the Toybaru twins appear to be the RX8's spiritual successor. Very very similar across a dozen metrics. The lack of the suicide doors makes accessing the back seat to get my daughter in a child seat a little more difficult, but probably not world endingly so (this is the second most significant detractor from what I can tell on paper). Price of entry is at least double the RX8, but money isn't really that much of a concern for this purchase (though a new BRZ is the max that I'm willing to spend). Flat fours are also pretty great engines. The new Toybarus share an engine with some SUV, and the SUV is turbocharged from the factory, so I suspect the power deficiency concerns of the first generation will disappear in a hurry. Reliability, parts availability, and even just raw numbers on the road for scavenging parts way down the road put the vote in the Toybaru's corner all day long. Never mind Toyota/Subaru's overall track record for reliability across the board.

But I love rotary engines... The RX8 is at most half the price, better rear seat access, and rotary. Did I mention rotary?

I know the bias here will lean hard in the Toybaru direction, but talk me into/out of whichever you way feel the stronger case can be made. Unless you also have extensive rotary experience, please don't with the "apex seals" or "oil consumption" or whatever comments.

If I had to always take kids around and drive a lot and wanted something fun and cheap I'd buy a Ford Fiesta ST, the one with 4 doors of course. If its about the kids and you want fun, then don't stress about the RWD or coupe looks factor, just get a fun little banger!

[ZDan]

Want rotary, get rotary. I had one, I *loved* it up until it did something that I'm not supposed to talk about

Want reliability? I'd get something else... Backseat access desired, maybe E90?

[spectre6000]

FWD is a complete non-starter. I'm not entirely opposed to AWD, but it's not my first choice. Anything Ford is also a complete non-starter from extensive personal experience, and also being aware of events in the automotive world and how Ford consistently handles them by throwing their owners under the bus.

Reliability, to me, mostly just means ability to get parts, no special factory tools that require licensure and whatever other nonsense, and no stupid engineering/cost cutting mistakes. I like to wrench, and I like building engines. I just need to be able to get parts. For many years, I exclusively drove air cooled VWs. They're insanely unreliable UNLESS you maintain them, then they're nearly bulletproof. Treat an ACVW like a modern car, and you're guaranteed to be done with it in under 2K miles, because it'll pretty much stop running when the valves stop opening. Maintenance includes engine rebuilds every 80-100K miles, and makes for a nice and genuinely pleasant weekend project. Kinda like a rotary, only no valves to adjust, and longer oil change intervals.

My third choice, that's barely on the radar at the moment, is a N55 335i. Full rear seat, rear doors, and trunk. They're boy racer darlings (just like the other two options), but finding a clean one with adult ownership is more likely than with the RX8, and obviously less than a new BRZ. Capable of big power, but heavy and not super tossable. Also, for all the complaints about oil consumption on rotaries (where it's intended), BMWs are some of the thirstiest cars I've ever come across in that regard; more than even a sick rotary in many cases. It's not NOT an option, just kind of at the back of the line there...

[HKz]

my vote is wait for the GR Corolla, can send 70% to rear + boosted + rear doors