follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Wheels | Tires | Spacers | Hub -- Sponsored by The Tire Rack

Wheels | Tires | Spacers | Hub -- Sponsored by The Tire Rack Specific topics relating to wheels and tires.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-20-2012, 12:19 AM   #1
Esoteric
 
Esoteric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: FR-S|(2)AE86|TA22|E30M3|E36M3|BPLeg
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 172
Thanks: 10
Thanked 73 Times in 36 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
BFGoodrich Gforce KDW2 - Track Review

BFGoodrich KDW2 on FRS Track use review:



Parts used:
-Kazera KZ-P 17x7.5 ET48 w/ included valve stems
-Tire rack hub-centric rings
-OEM wheel nuts
-225/45-17 BFGoodrich G-Force KDW2
-Revised alignment on 100% stock suspension.



The BFG G-Force T/A KDW2 represent a tire that has a stiff sidewall and a grippy compound. I recall loving them at the time they were released and in this review I still do. While there are certainly more modern performance tires on the market that have eclipsed the KDW2 in performance in recent years, this review focuses on the fact that this tire in this size is a superb match for this chassis.

The Kazera KZ-P 17x7.5 ET48 were used for this track day as we could get them on short notice (they were one day away).
While we like investing in something that we trust, the Kazeras were not all that bad! At $142 each, the price is one that any enthusiast can afford and they weigh around 19lbs each. They balanced out very nicely (except for one, that took quite a few OZs to balance, that showed that quality control wasn't the highest).
If your on a budget these might be perfect for you. Not everyone will be able to afford $700 a piece track wheels, and these represent something like what many enthusiasts will track a mostly stock car with.

Looks:
You either like the flame tread pattern or or hate the way they look, but they were (and in our case kept) there reputation as a legitimate performance tire. The rounded sidewalls look the part and the sidewall pattern is handsome.

Setup:
I ran a modified alignment for the OEM suspension/OE Michelin tires/OE bushings and that worked great during autoX. How would it work on the BFGs?
(NOTE: your car is likely to be out of alignment from the dealer based on the few I have seen since then).
The alignment mods were based on our setup experience for other RWD cars with similar geometry and and it worked well. We reduced the amount of toe-in from stock, and even though we didn't change it after our AutoX settings and for the BFG, I was supremely happy with the car, so far it continues to be working better than those who are simply adding front camber!
(NOTE: The BRZ is another story, as those rates are different and the optimal alignment would be adjusted slightly in theory).

Performance:
With that, I think a 225 width will prove to be very popular for this chassis indeed. Maybe thats why TRD chose the 225 width for their package.
After adjusting for tire temps over the weekend of track use, the BFGs responded with excellent response and lots of communication about what they were doing. The performance is far better than the OEM Michelins in all respects.
With the BFG, at no time did I feel anything less than 100% confident in the level of grip at the front or rear of the chassis, and because the tires are not too grippy for the springs and dampers, there was not excessive roll and geometry change- and the limits of grip and transitioning onto over or understeer was supremely predictable and at times when I wanted to get sideways, very fun.
At the end of day two, after I was able to go out on solo runs, we ended up with 38PSI front and 38.5 PSI rear and the car felt perfectly dialed for the last 3 runs of the day.




Wear:
Tire wear on the BFGs after the first day was great, super even and without any drama. Further proof that the alignment was working well and that they were a good match for the power and weight of the chassis.
I settled on pressure of 36 and 36 Hot as the day was a scorcher at around 100F ambient. The second day, with more time to play with pressures ended up at 38 & 38.5 as I said. After the weekend, i checked depths and had within .5 MM of depth across the tires, I was surprised as we had no addition front camber but the car was working so well- wear showed that indeed.



Take away:
-Grip was perfect for the amount of spring and damping the OE setup has to offer.
-Long wear on the FRS/BRZ.
-17x7.5s work well, 17x8s will also fit these tires.
-Did some street driving on these as well, no issues still comfortable and useable
-I think a 17x8 (as fitted to the previous gen STi with this tire size) would be an even nicer match.

Esoteric is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Esoteric For This Useful Post:
avusblue (12-21-2012), Black Tire (02-16-2013), djdnz (08-20-2012), whataboutbob (08-23-2012)
Old 08-20-2012, 01:13 AM   #2
dsgerbc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: BRZ(sold), STI
Location: A2, MI
Posts: 1,915
Thanks: 176
Thanked 419 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Thanks.
How's the noise on the hwy?
dsgerbc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 07:41 AM   #3
GuySmily
Member
 
GuySmily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: MR2
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 70
Thanks: 2
Thanked 30 Times in 15 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
These are AWESOME tires. Excellent even in the rain. I don't notice any tire noise, but I'm in a naturally noisy MR-S.
GuySmily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 02:00 PM   #4
Esoteric
 
Esoteric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: FR-S|(2)AE86|TA22|E30M3|E36M3|BPLeg
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 172
Thanks: 10
Thanked 73 Times in 36 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsgerbc View Post
Thanks.
How's the noise on the hwy?
Sorry, couldn't give you the best feedback on this. I drove on them with our machinist for a short time, we didn't get much over 50MPH but we found them acceptably quiet and comfortable
Both of those things are personally preference.

On the street, where we were not pushing the car, the lack of sidewall flex was reassuring and the steering feel was more direct over OEM. It was clearly noticable despite not pushing hard.
Esoteric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 06:55 AM   #5
AkaJabari
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: Scion FR-S, Scion tC
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 39
Thanks: 0
Thanked 22 Times in 13 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
They're excellent track tires but once they get down to ~50% tread, the road noise they generate is unbearable. It's like a mad South African soccer hooligan is blaring a vuvuzela right in your ear from the backseat. I would not recommend for the street.
AkaJabari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 09:39 AM   #6
ABQautoxer
Senior Member
 
ABQautoxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2021 Supra / 2022 Tundra
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 659
Thanks: 60
Thanked 197 Times in 141 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Around here KDW's are know to chunk and over heat very quickly in performance driving (track/autox). They are not recommended if you do those. YMMV.
__________________
TomR
ABQautoxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2012, 11:53 PM   #7
Esoteric
 
Esoteric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: FR-S|(2)AE86|TA22|E30M3|E36M3|BPLeg
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 172
Thanks: 10
Thanked 73 Times in 36 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
-"vuvuzela"

hahaha... awesome reference.

-"know to chunk and over heat very quickly in performance driving (track/autox)"

We didn't get to anywhere near that. I have seen this on big heavy cars.
They worked perfectly and ambients were in the 100* range. I think its because the FRS is not very powerful or heavy. Highly recommended in this case
Esoteric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2012, 12:14 AM   #8
whataboutbob
AutoX-10/10ths every run
 
whataboutbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S AT Firestorm
Location: San Marcos, CA, USA
Posts: 2,561
Thanks: 4,746
Thanked 1,852 Times in 1,007 Posts
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Strongly considering these tires. Thanks for the review.

I talked with someone who was running them on a newer Mustang last weekend, and he was having issues with the tread splitting from the casing.

He was a member of one of the AutoX clubs down here in San Diego.

Not sure if this was due to the weight of his car or ???
whataboutbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2012, 01:53 AM   #9
Esoteric
 
Esoteric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: FR-S|(2)AE86|TA22|E30M3|E36M3|BPLeg
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 172
Thanks: 10
Thanked 73 Times in 36 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whataboutbob View Post
Strongly considering these tires. Thanks for the review.

I talked with someone who was running them on a newer Mustang last weekend, and he was having issues with the tread splitting from the casing.
A Mustang is a great example of heavy and powerful.

That seems to be the culprit. I did (6) 25 min sessions on them over 2 days (11 full sessions!) I found them to be superb and for the first day when I had an instructor he found them to be very confidence inspiring from the passenger seat too. The picture you see is after all of those sessions, not an issue in the slightest. They would work for several of those same weekends.

They are not cheap, and they are not new- but they felt great.


Next will either be my long time favorite (Dunlop Starspec Z1) or the up and coming Pilot Super Sport. I have many BMW and Porsche guys FLYING on those tires; they are mad and are super comfortable and quiet as well. Not even insanely priced either.
Esoteric is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Esoteric For This Useful Post:
whataboutbob (08-23-2012)
Old 08-23-2012, 01:54 AM   #10
Esoteric
 
Esoteric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: FR-S|(2)AE86|TA22|E30M3|E36M3|BPLeg
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 172
Thanks: 10
Thanked 73 Times in 36 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
This is after the full weekend:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esoteric View Post
Esoteric is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Esoteric For This Useful Post:
whataboutbob (08-23-2012)
Old 03-03-2013, 09:56 PM   #11
Esoteric
 
Esoteric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: FR-S|(2)AE86|TA22|E30M3|E36M3|BPLeg
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 172
Thanks: 10
Thanked 73 Times in 36 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Lets do a follow up from two other track days last year

With their low center of gravity, all FRS/BRZ have OEM springs that are soft relative to most sports cars. With soft springs comes quite a bit of body roll. Amongst other things, roll causes the outside of the tires to wear excessively. That being said, we chose to add additional front camber to the front axle.

Even though soft, the balance of the factory springs and dampers was something we were all impressed with, and knew that things could be improved just by revised alignment. After all, why not see how far we could go with the factory springs and shocks. They may not sit low, but stock has a great out of the box balance and feel.

Customers of mine know I am a big proponent of alignment, its one of THE most important things, period.



To enhance the life and performance of these tires, we used Whiteline Comp C direct replacement and Whiteline front camber bolts. In the rear, adjustable lower control arms and toe arms with spherical bearings rather than bushings. I'll mention this here; thee changes get rid of binding in the rear and improve road holding AND ride quality, most people are not aware of that positive side effect. The only change felt was not expressly a positive one was that you could hear the tires a bit more. (All of these parts are available in our web store by the way). Since they play nicely with factory struts and stay in the spirt of a dual-use car, I recommends these mods to any owner who wants to improve there FT86.

These mods resulted in the car had more overall grip. More front-end grip at the limit, with improved transitioning to loss of grip, feathering was reduced, and temps evened out further. Since the front springs are so soft, we ran 2.8 degrees of negative Camber, zero Toe. 1.8 Degree rear Camber, zero Toe. I wanted as much braking grip as well, and felt like that represented a good balance.

On the last track day of the year, with 40 degree temps and rain, and about 3 or 4 events. The tires, while hardening from heat cycles continued to work just fine. Heat goes into this size rapidly and stabilizes nicely. I think everyone chasing after more tire would be shocked by the performance of the 225s, and in fact many people ask if the car is seriously modded and they just cant see it.
In the wet, the flame pattern evacuated water superbly, and speeds of 115 MPH into breaking were composed and confidence inspiring... I got a point by from all the much "faster cars", including a GT3.
In the wet, there was simply no car that could match the pace of our mildly modded FRS because we could push with no nasty behavior from the chassis. Even the AWD cars.


I can say with confidence that these tires are a great match for this car on the track. :happy0180:

Street use
I decided over the fall & winter to drive these around on the street. Now keep in mind they are hard and feathered from track use, so I won't go into an in-depth street review other than to say that these have a hard sidewall relitive to some of the latest offerings in the extreme performance street tire category. Its our belief that you can do better for less cost for a street car/daily driver.

Last edited by Esoteric; 03-04-2013 at 08:06 AM. Reason: details of other mods
Esoteric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 10:21 PM   #12
OrbitalEllipses
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Attitude
Location: MD
Posts: 10,046
Thanks: 884
Thanked 4,889 Times in 2,902 Posts
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Excellent wet-weather tire; that's why I bought them for my WRX. Grip for days without giving up in the wet like some of the "all out" street tires. Still not the best DD tire though; the compound and sidewalls make road noise REAL loud. However, I'm willing to endure that because they were significantly less expensive the other comparable street tires.
OrbitalEllipses is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The new BFGoodrich R1-S FTD Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 20 09-15-2012 09:16 AM
Track Day at Infineon Raceway Review Dpark27 Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 4 08-18-2012 05:16 PM
Everyday Driver Track Review of FRS vs BRZ jenzan BRZ Photos, Videos, Wallpapers, Gallery Forum 1 07-03-2012 04:47 PM
Toyota 86 / FR-S review on track in Australia sho Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 2 04-20-2012 01:41 PM
Road & Track Scion FR-S review posted. ZZ-FRS Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 26 12-10-2011 11:35 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.