GR86 Real World Road Tests & Reviews

[AFBDA]

Originally Posted by HachiRokuX

Are Toyota dealerships accepting deposits for these yet?

I can also confirm that in Canada they are taking deposits. I put mine down on September 11th, and the dealership took a refundable $1,000 deposit that will contribute toward the final price.

The guy I was working with claimed I was not the first to put a deposit on these things but he also didn’t know much about the car so I wouldn’t put too much stock in that…also gave no indication of delivery timeframe.

Originally Posted by Frost

In Canada yes, I put down my money on Saturday.

Which colour did you end up choosing?

[Frost]

Originally Posted by AFBDA

I can also confirm that in Canada they are taking deposits. I put mine down on September 11th, and the dealership took a refundable $1,000 deposit that will contribute toward the final price.

The guy I was working with claimed I was not the first to put a deposit on these things but he also didn’t know much about the car so I wouldn’t put too much stock in that…also gave no indication of delivery timeframe.



Which colour did you end up choosing?

Track bRed. You?

I had a chance to personally view the prototype that's been making its rounds around Canada. It looks amazing in person and its a red unlike any red Toyota has used - ever.

My sales guy said I could change anything once they confirm the orders are being processed though... I have a 2 week window once they know.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

King has been around for longer than many people on these foums have been alive. They are doing constant setups including setting up racecars. We will have the BRZ on same dyno.

I remember King from my Honda days. I actually ordered Mugen coilovers for my DC5 from them. This is not a knock on King at all. They're just not known for their work on the 86 platform, nor have they have they published numerous dyno charts for 86's from their dyno like more familiar tuners on this board (drift-office, ptuning, pure automotive, on-point, etc.) Combined with that strange looking gen 1 torque curve and it's hard to put a lot of faith into that dyno chart. The supposed 47 whp difference between gen 1 vs 2 just adds to the weirdness.

I appreciate the video though and the thoroughness of tracking, dyno testing, and drag racing all the different competitors. Great job on that and looking forward to seeing the BRZ on the dyno (assuming a production version!)

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

We know that the supra showed better numbers than the factory claimed.

That is a premium/luxury car thing. They all tend to underestimate the power. They probably figure there is a certain variation in power output, so they quote the lower 10% or some lower standard deviation, and then they probably don't add in small peaks that may exist that artificially increase the peak hp and tq numbers; they probably smooth out the curve.

Most people quoting dyno sessions describing peak hp and tq typically include these momentary spikes.

[stilesg57]

Rather than crapping on they dyno data, how about taking it as a good faith effort and trying to explain it from there?

I’ve been complaining about the couple dynos from Japan for a few weeks now so I’m seeing this as a mix of explanations and probabilities.

Probability that the dyno reads high? That’s there — it’s a dyno jet. Probability that it reads high and the ‘20 they had was also a dog of dogs? Definitely low. That the dyno reads low and the ‘20 reflects that and the ‘22 is a ringer of all ringers? Also probably pretty low.

I come away with two bigger likelihoods: the ‘22 really is a lot better, AND it’s like some other motors I know of (including boxer motors, ahem EJ20) that make more power as they break in. There are engines that gain power after a few thousand hard miles just like there are barrels that gain velocity after a few hundred rounds. A preproduction press car could absolutely display that phenomenon. I think that’s more likely that a dyno being wonky high with the ‘22 and low with the ‘20.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by scuzzy

206-209 whp so only 8.3%-9.6% powertrain loss? 175 wheel tq for a 5% powertrain loss? That's the headline!

Well IMO I think if it means anything it means you are getting more than it was rated for, rather than reduced losses.

Both the GR Supra and the GR Yaris came out like this, so its not that wild of a theory.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by stilesg57

Rather than crapping on they dyno data, how about taking it as a good faith effort and trying to explain it from there?

I’ve been complaining about the couple dynos from Japan for a few weeks now so I’m seeing this as a mix of explanations and probabilities.

Probability that the dyno reads high? That’s there — it’s a dyno jet. Probability that it reads high and the ‘20 they had was also a dog of dogs? Definitely low. That the dyno reads low and the ‘20 reflects that and the ‘22 is a ringer of all ringers? Also probably pretty low.

I come away with two bigger likelihoods: the ‘22 really is a lot better, AND it’s like some other motors I know of (including boxer motors, ahem EJ20) that make more power as they break in. There are engines that gain power after a few thousand hard miles just like there are barrels that gain velocity after a few hundred rounds. A preproduction press car could absolutely display that phenomenon. I think that’s more likely that a dyno being wonky high with the ‘22 and low with the ‘20.

Oh I know about engines breaking in with usage. After 10-15 track days, my stock 2013 FR-S with a catback made 176 whp on a dynojet where most stock FA20's were making 165. Another track junky I knew, his stock FA20 made 178 whp. But you know what didn't change on either of our dyno charts? The general shape of the torque curve.

Also in your explanation, why does the 2022 car make more power with usage but the 2020 car doesn't?

We could speculate all day but I think it's better to just wait for more 2022 dynos to crop up before jumping to conclusions, preferably from shops whose dynos we're more familiar with (and with actual production cars).

FWIW before anyone calls me biased, I'm already planning to trade up to a GR86 so I'd love to be able to expect a 47 whp increase. But that seems unlikely and I'm not willing to declare that a fact just yet, at least not based on a single dyno.

[stilesg57]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Oh I know about engines breaking in with usage. After 10-15 track days, my stock 2013 FR-S with a catback made 176 whp on a dynojet where most stock FA20's were making 165. Another track junky I knew, his stock FA20 made 178 whp. But you know what didn't change on either of our dyno charts? The general shape of the torque curve.

Fair. I’ve seen similar (albeit on different motors).

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Also in your explanation, why does the 2022 car make more power with usage but the 2020 car doesn't?

It’s possible they both make more power; the dyno reads a little low compared to the Japanese clips we’ve seen and the ‘22 actually makes a boat load more power

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

We could speculate all day but I think it's better to just wait for more 2022 dynos to crop up before jumping to conclusions, preferably from shops whose dynos we're more familiar with (and with actual production cars).

Totally agree. Most dynos from Japan are showing low-mid 190s for whp, and a gloriously annoying tq dip as well. For now, this one is the comparative outlier. It’s USDM, but pre-pro, and def run more miles and been beat on harder than the JDM cars going straight from showroom to dyno. So lots of variables here. We’re gonna need more info.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

FWIW before anyone calls me biased, I'm already planning to trade up to a GR86 so I'd love to be able to expect a 47 whp increase. But that seems unlikely and I'm not willing to declare that a fact just yet, at least not based on a single dyno.

Me too. I’m still planning FI within a year if I get a new BRZ. I am close to pulling the trigger and placing an order though, and at least experiences like Mr. Goose’s make me feel better

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Oh I know about engines breaking in with usage. After 10-15 track days, my stock 2013 FR-S with a catback made 176 whp on a dynojet where most stock FA20's were making 165. Another track junky I knew, his stock FA20 made 178 whp. But you know what didn't change on either of our dyno charts? The general shape of the torque curve.

Also in your explanation, why does the 2022 car make more power with usage but the 2020 car doesn't?

We could speculate all day but I think it's better to just wait for more 2022 dynos to crop up before jumping to conclusions, preferably from shops whose dynos we're more familiar with (and with actual production cars).

FWIW before anyone calls me biased, I'm already planning to trade up to a GR86 so I'd love to be able to expect a 47 whp increase. But that seems unlikely and I'm not willing to declare that a fact just yet, at least not based on a single dyno.

I'm not understanding why people are mind blown by this. I mean we could argue the numbers... I get that. But the torque curve? Isn't it obvious that the dyno was simply started differently and at a different RPM at full throttle for the 20'? I mean at this point I feel like it's clear as day! Why they did it, I don't know, but does it really matter? Again, as I said earlier, I believe they were just trying to quickly dyno up the 20' to show its peak numbers and give a comparison. The 22' they dyno'd at full RPM range to also show the curve. But with the wild bumpy torque curve all the way up till about 4.5K, you can tell they were increasing throttle up to 100% until then.

EDIT: Probably also has to do with the fact that torque and power are supposed to peak in the high RPM range for the 20', so they were just looking to get those peak values. 22' torque peaks much lower, so they probably wanted to capture that.

[scuzzy]

Don't get me wrong -- I love the numbers! I hope they stand up to further testing and it turns out Toyota/Subaru are just underrating the power figures for whatever reason.

[Frost]

I'm planning on documenting the crap out of this car like I did on my S2000.

I dyno'ed that car twice in first two years with zero mods to establish reliable base lines.

For the GR, I'm going to break her in and keep filling with 93 Octane gas and then dyno and then switch to 91 Octane gas and then dyno and then go BACK to 93 Octane and see what happens.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

I'm not understanding why people are mind blown by this. I mean we could argue the numbers... I get that. But the torque curve? Isn't it obvious that the dyno was simply started differently and at a different RPM at full throttle for the 20'? I mean at this point I feel like it's clear as day! Why they did it, I don't know, but does it really matter? Again, as I said earlier, I believe they were just trying to quickly dyno up the 20' to show its peak numbers and give a comparison. The 22' they dyno'd at full RPM range to also show the curve. But with the wild bumpy torque curve all the way up till about 4.5K, you can tell they were increasing throttle up to 100% until then.

EDIT: Probably also has to do with the fact that torque and power are supposed to peak in the high RPM range for the 20', so they were just looking to get those peak values. 22' torque peaks much lower, so they probably wanted to capture that.

I mean that's certainly one explanation. Maybe the dyno operator applied full load starting at around 4000 rpm, but only on the 2020. Who knows?



Typically on gen 1 cars on a dynojet, they'll lose 20 lbs-ft through the torque curve. Compare that with the gen 1 car tested by King that only appears to lose 10 lbs-ft (through the half of the torque dip we can see). For whatever reason it doesn't recover and make that extra 10 lbs-ft on the top end. And we can't tell how much torque it was making before the torque dip because of the way it was dyno'd (again, assuming that's what happened). The less data there is to work with, the more difficult it is to understand what's going on. And personally I wouldn't lean too heavily on data like that, especially when the final results come out unexpectedly and it's a one-off.

Everyone can do what they want, but personally I'll wait and see other results.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I mean that's certainly one explanation. Maybe the dyno operator applied full load starting at around 4000 rpm, but only on the 2020. Who knows?

Typically on gen 1 cars on a dynojet, they'll lose 20 lbs-ft through the torque curve. Compare that with the gen 1 car tested by King that only appears to lose 10 lbs-ft (through the half of the torque dip we can see). For whatever reason it doesn't recover and make that extra 10 lbs-ft on the top end. And we can't tell how much torque it was making before the torque dip because of the way it was dyno'd (again, assuming that's what happened). The less data there is to work with, the more difficult it is to understand what's going on. And personally I wouldn't lean too heavily on data like that, especially when the final results come out unexpectedly and it's a one-off.

Everyone can do what they want, but personally I'll wait and see other results.

Agreed 200%, definitely not here to lean on any data, and look forward to more. But I would think it's pretty good to make a conclusion that the torque curve is completely missing its first half due to the way it was dyno'd. Making this a comparison of peak numbers more than the curves.

Either way, things are looking pretty good and it looks like this will be as exciting as many are making it out to be.

[ayau]

a lot of keyboard dyno experts all up in here