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BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 01-23-2019, 09:12 PM   #71
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The 86/BRZ buyer USUALLY falls into two categories. The first is a young individual who is looking to purchase their first new RWD sports car. Once they have the car for awhile, they realize that it is not fast enough to impress their friends and/or win stop light drag races and they end up trading it in for another car around its price range (WRX, Muscle Car, GTI, etc) . The others are enthusiast who appreciate the handling, low center of gravity, low curb weight, throttle response and NA engine where you have to work for your power. They also realize that there are not many vehicles at that price point that offers these things besides the Miata.
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...or buy it cuz you're having mid-life crisis... like me

Joke a side, I agree the most of the ppl fit into those 2 categories, (i'm in the 2nd one) but even in 1st category, there are other equal or cheaper, faster, roomier options that fits better. (Mustang & etc) But somehow ppl still buy 86. Miata is another good example of this unique mystery lol
I disagree with those two categories. The biggest category are those that like a nice economical coupe that is somewhat practical but fun to drive. This is probably 80% of the owners. It is also the group with almost zero representation on forums so gets ignored. The Miata is even more representative of the category. So much so that it is actually a meme.

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Old 01-23-2019, 09:49 PM   #72
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Imo Toyota is way too conservative a company to sell a real performance car. This thing just oozes think tank marketing and no real passion or risk taking. All imo of course
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:34 PM   #73
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Imo Toyota is way too conservative a company to sell a real performance car. This thing just oozes think tank marketing and no real passion or risk taking. All imo of course
With Tetsuya Tada-San involved in the project I'm going to to have to disagree on the passion part. I guess time will tell.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:42 PM   #74
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I disagree with those two categories. The biggest category are those that like a nice economical coupe that is somewhat practical but fun to drive. This is probably 80% of the owners. It is also the group with almost zero representation on forums so gets ignored. The Miata is even more representative of the category. So much so that it is actually a meme.

I believe the winner of the nice economical coupe award goes to the non V8 versions of the muscle cars (Ecoboost Mustang, 4/6 Camaro and Challenger). Ford, Chevy and Dodge would not be able to continue to make the V8 versions if people did not buy the lower trims. I see a lot of non V8 versions of these cars on the road and I'm assuming its because people are just looking for a good looking coupe and don't care about the power. They could also just be rentals
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:10 PM   #75
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But the American coupes are at a much lower price point than the supra. The smaller motor ones anyway. The supra looks like a classy sports car that probably won't excel at anything.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:12 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by JR View Post
I believe the winner of the nice economical coupe award goes to the non V8 versions of the muscle cars (Ecoboost Mustang, 4/6 Camaro and Challenger). Ford, Chevy and Dodge would not be able to continue to make the V8 versions if people did not buy the lower trims. I see a lot of non V8 versions of these cars on the road and I'm assuming its because people are just looking for a good looking coupe and don't care about the power. They could also just be rentals


I can explain the popularity of the Challenger. Dodge, to their credit, can build those aircraft carriers way cheaper and quicker than the US Navy.
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Old 01-24-2019, 03:09 AM   #77
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Will you listen if somebody explains? Cars are so much faster now that average arm/leg movement speed is not acceptable. Check Nurburgring top cars.
Are Nurburgring lap times the only thing that matters to you? Ironic you say that because our cars are designed around the philosophy of making driving fun, not necessarily fast. There are a whole slew of hot hatches and luxury sedans with faster lap times than our cars and I'd much rather drive my FR-S.

The auto industry has gotten so obsessed with meaningless lap times that it drives me crazy. And that's coming from a self-professed trackaholic. Who cares if a DSG is 0.5 second quicker per lap if you're having less fun?

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I disagree. BMW manuals suck. The shifter has long throws, it's rubbery and numb with almost no feedback. The clutch pedal is way too long (German tradition) and the grab point is way too high. The pedal arm is made of plastic, which makes it too flexible and inaccurate feeling. And then there's the damn clutch delay valve that screws up your timing, kills the little feedback there used to be, and teaches you terrible clutching habits.

I've had 4 manual BMWs before the BRZ, and a manual Audi before that. I still have one BMW and an older Benz. I love my German cars and as far as I can tell they'll be my overall go to in the future too, but a great clutch/shifter setup is something I've yet to see in a German car. Even Porsches don't do it right. The BRZ is the best manual setup out of all my cars I've ever had, even better (stock!) than my E92 335i, which had the CDV removed, a custom all metal shift rod/linkage, and an adjustable steel clutch pedal.
Just curious - have you driven any manual M3? Wondering because I haven't had any issues on street or track with my friend's F80 M3 or my other track buddy's E46 M3. Like I said they lack some feel compared with the truly great manuals, but nothing horrible. Yeah the clutch engagement point is a little high, but same is true for a stock FR-S/BRZ.

Put it this way - if the Miata/S2000 is an A and the FR-S is a B+, the F80 M3 would be a B at worst. Not great, but still pretty good.

(Some other comparison points - I'd give my old 350z a C and my old 987.2 Boxster S an A-. E46 M3 and 330ci would get B+).
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:20 AM   #78
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what do you consider the reasoning behind the manuals offered with the Corolla/Celica/Matrix XRS with the Elise/Exige engine, FJ Cruiser and the new 6 speed & software with the new Corolla (or GRMN Yaris/Mark X/etc)? Toyota just likes to spend their money on random stuff?

Economy of scale and/or using existing parts. Making manual transmissions for something that is expected to sell in the millions during its manufacturing phase (even if it is 10%) is different then something that will sell in the thousands.

Again, I'm not defending their actions so much as seeing that there are multitude of fiscally responsible reasons Toyota feels no obligation to sell the Supra with a MT. It could be as simple as testing showed the BMW one doesn't meet their standards and they don't want to spend the engineering dollars to build a new one or tweak the existing one.
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:00 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Are Nurburgring lap times the only thing that matters to you? Ironic you say that because our cars are designed around the philosophy of making driving fun, not necessarily fast. There are a whole slew of hot hatches and luxury sedans with faster lap times than our cars and I'd much rather drive my FR-S.

The auto industry has gotten so obsessed with meaningless lap times that it drives me crazy. And that's coming from a self-professed trackaholic. Who cares if a DSG is 0.5 second quicker per lap if you're having less fun?



Just curious - have you driven any manual M3? Wondering because I haven't had any issues on street or track with my friend's F80 M3 or my other track buddy's E46 M3. Like I said they lack some feel compared with the truly great manuals, but nothing horrible. Yeah the clutch engagement point is a little high, but same is true for a stock FR-S/BRZ.

Put it this way - if the Miata/S2000 is an A and the FR-S is a B+, the F80 M3 would be a B at worst. Not great, but still pretty good.

(Some other comparison points - I'd give my old 350z a C and my old 987.2 Boxster S an A-. E46 M3 and 330ci would get B+).


Interesting. I have, and while the Mcars usually have shorter throw shifters, I don't find the feedback and pedal action to be much better than the others.

Most interesting is that you rate the 350Z so low. The shifter on the 350z feels solid and very accurate to me. Can't remember the pedal action which probably means it was okay, neither good nor bad.

I'd rate the cars you mentioned like this:

S2000 A
NB Miata A-
BRZ A-
350z B
987 C+
E46/E90 M3 C+
E46//E90 C

When I called BMW manuals terrible I meant for a sports car. When compared to MTs in ecoboxes and trucks the BMW manuals are great. The mostly need more feedback and no delay in the clutch action. I can live with longish throws. Interesting that we disagree on where the Z and the Cayman end up.
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:01 AM   #80
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I believe the winner of the nice economical coupe award goes to the non V8 versions of the muscle cars (Ecoboost Mustang, 4/6 Camaro and Challenger). Ford, Chevy and Dodge would not be able to continue to make the V8 versions if people did not buy the lower trims. I see a lot of non V8 versions of these cars on the road and I'm assuming its because people are just looking for a good looking coupe and don't care about the power. They could also just be rentals
Oh without a doubt those are the leaders but that does not mean that the average 86/BRZ owners are not in the same group.
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:04 AM   #81
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Oh without a doubt those are the leaders but that does not mean that the average 86/BRZ owners are not in the same group.
They could be, but I don't believe that is the majority. Most people will look at the 200HP or the new and improved 205HP rating and laugh because they could get a vehicle that has 70 or more horsepower for the same amount of money or less. Horsepower and 0-60 times can be the deciding factor for a lot of coupe buyers. Your regular buyer, whether their young or old, is not going to care about all the other things that the car has to offer. I could only see them choosing the 86/BRZ if they are in love with the looks (hopefully not the remodeled 86 ).
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:17 AM   #82
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Interesting. I have, and while the Mcars usually have shorter throw shifters, I don't find the feedback and pedal action to be much better than the others.

Most interesting is that you rate the 350Z so low. The shifter on the 350z feels solid and very accurate to me. Can't remember the pedal action which probably means it was okay, neither good nor bad.

I'd rate the cars you mentioned like this:

S2000 A
NB Miata A-
BRZ A-
350z B
987 C+
E46/E90 M3 C+
E46//E90 C

When I called BMW manuals terrible I meant for a sports car. When compared to MTs in ecoboxes and trucks the BMW manuals are great. The mostly need more feedback and no delay in the clutch action. I can live with longish throws. Interesting that we disagree on where the Z and the Cayman end up.
Yeah I think we might be basically saying the same thing on the M3.

My issue with my 350z shifter was that it was really vague and loose, and would sometimes lock out 2nd even when warm. That said, I did buy mine with 60k miles on it so that might have something to do with it, not sure.

My Boxster S was really good. Had that German feel about it - throws were long and not a whole lot of feedback going into each gate, but smooth and precise.
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:46 AM   #83
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Interesting. I have, and while the Mcars usually have shorter throw shifters, I don't find the feedback and pedal action to be much better than the others.

Most interesting is that you rate the 350Z so low. The shifter on the 350z feels solid and very accurate to me. Can't remember the pedal action which probably means it was okay, neither good nor bad.

I'd rate the cars you mentioned like this:

S2000 A
NB Miata A-
BRZ A-
350z B
987 C+
E46/E90 M3 C+
E46//E90 C

When I called BMW manuals terrible I meant for a sports car. When compared to MTs in ecoboxes and trucks the BMW manuals are great. The mostly need more feedback and no delay in the clutch action. I can live with longish throws. Interesting that we disagree on where the Z and the Cayman end up.
I owned a 6MT G35 Sedan and hated the shifter. I hate it when they take a shifter with relatively long throw and cut it down really short to compensate for the long throw. Actually the whole car sucked. It rattled like crazy, made all kinds of noises on a cold start. The dealer was incredibly arrogant. The use of ABS to compensate for lack of real LSD sucked. Kind of killed my desire for another Nissan project similar to how the FA20 killed my desire for another Subaru product.

My ratings would be similar to yours. Maybe a C+ on the 350Z (assuming it's the same as the G35).
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:58 PM   #84
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Yeah I think we might be basically saying the same thing on the M3.

My issue with my 350z shifter was that it was really vague and loose, and would sometimes lock out 2nd even when warm. That said, I did buy mine with 60k miles on it so that might have something to do with it, not sure.

My Boxster S was really good. Had that German feel about it - throws were long and not a whole lot of feedback going into each gate, but smooth and precise.
Hmmm... any thoughts on shift feel for the 128i?
I'm thinking to eventually get into one as my RWD daily and family car.
Looks promising so far: big trunk, enough rear-room to fit 2 car seats, seemingly-good reliability in NA base guise, decent gas mileage, supposedly-excellent hydraulic steering...
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