BRZ/FR-S vs. Datsun S30/280Z size and styling - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

shiumai · 04-28-2013, 06:32 PM

The GT86, FR-S and BRZ are the latest offerings in the genre of the 'affordable sports car'; and the level of enthusiasm and following that they've garnered in such a short time will surely cement its place in sports car history along with the other 'classics'.

The Nissan S30 (Datsun Z) is one member of that hall of fame, and I've been driving a 1978 280Z since 1985. The 280Z was the last in the line of the S30 model, and IMHO had already lost some of the 'fun, simple sports car' concept that started out with the original 240Z in 1969, with its ungainly crash bumpers and fuel injected engine vs. carbs. I consider the S30 body style 'classic' and timeless, with the later ZX models and latest iterations of the 300/350/370 a deviation from the original fun, low horsepower concept.

My 28-year relationship with the Z has been full of highs and lows, as maintaining a 35 year old car can be both expensive and time consuming. Okay for a project/weekend car or single-guy's car, but not so good for a 2nd family car (our main family car is a 2013 Subaru Outback in dark grey metallic).

So, when I made the decision to finally consider a new car, I started looking early last year. I originally thought of going the compact 4-door practical approach, but I think that I identified so much with the Z that I wanted something 'similar', but could still carry my 5-year old in the back occasionally, and that my wife could drive (only in an emergency of the most dire kind). I shared the different options I was considering with my wife, even showing her a Mini, and she said 'I can't picture you in a Mini. That's not you. Get the BRZ.'

I was drawn to the BRZ because it promised everything the original Z did, and met my family requirements, so from that time on, I followed the release of the twins in great anticipation.

When I finally got the BRZ in grey, and it was sitting side by side with the Z in the garage, I noticed how similar they were in dimensions and overall shape. I'm obviously not the first one to compare the BRZ to the S30 of course; they've been compared from the start and there are other articles on the net that have done so already. But it's one thing to read about it and look at numbers, and another to have them next to each other physically. While the S30 and GT86 are separated by 42 years, both of them draw from the Toyota 2000GT for styling inspiration so it follows that they'd share some similarities.

I'm in the process of selling my beloved Z, so I thought that I'd post this quick comparo before it's gone (update: the Z has now been sold).

Length - One thing I did with my Z was get rid of the ugly front bumper and replace it with a fiberglass air dam. Hence, the overall length of my Z is slightly shorter than the original 280Z. My 280Z comes in at 168" (not counting the rear bumper rubber protrusions), which is remarkably close to the 167" listed for the BRZ. What's amazing about this is that the BRZ has rear seats. Yeah, they can hardly be considered as such, but my kid still fits there. He can sit cross-legged when he gets bigger so I'm starting him on yoga lessons in a couple of years. The BRZ accomplishes this feat by having a 10" longer wheel base at 101" (the two-seat Z's have a wheel base of 91"). Coincidentally, the 280Z 2+2 model (with equally small rear seats) had a wheel base of 101", but the stretched version looked ungainly while the BRZ doesn't.

Height and width - My Z is lowered an inch, same as my BRZ, but the stock height of a Z is 50" and the BRZ stock height is 50.6" - again, remarkably close. There's a relatively big difference in width, though, as the BRZ has a width of 70", and the Z is narrower at 64". The 6" difference in width accounts for the squatter, more aggressive look of the BRZ.

Weight - the original 280Z weighed in at 2875 lbs compared to the 2776 lbs for the BRZ limited. My removal of the heavy front bumper on the Z and replacing the fuel injection system with triple Webers probably puts them a lot closer than than the 100 lb original difference.

Daily drivability and utility - This is a difficult one, as the BRZ is so much more refined than the 280Z, and almost like a luxury car in comparison, with all the bells and whistles. The creaks, squeaks, rattles and noise that the Z produces would send a BRZ or FR-S owner into hysterics for fear of their car falling apart. While it's not really fair to compare a 35 year old car with a brand new one, apart from the age-related differences, the driving experience is more similar than not. My slightly lowered Z is a moderately stiff ride so going to the BRZ's ride wasn't a big step - I can feel the road quite well in either of them. I definitely felt 'at home' quickly in the BRZ, coming from the Z, with their envelopes being so close and both being RWD vehicles.

The BRZ is a bit harder to get in and out of because the door is longer to accommodate the +2 seating in the rear. That, combined with the more forward seating position means that I sometimes have to contort myself to get into the BRZ when someone has parked too close to me and I can't open the door very far. The driver's seat in the Z is located further behind, and the door is almost a foot shorter, so it's easier to get in and out of.

When parking, the long nose of the Z takes a bit more getting used to than the BRZ, but on the other hand, rearward visibility through the hatch back on the Z is better when backing up. The difference in seating position between the two is still screwing me up, even though both cars are the same length. I'm still getting used to the whereabouts of the BRZ's extremities in relation to me.

For being the same length, the BRZ has more usable space. Yes, that's a funny statement, but I'm comparing it to a Z. The additional 6" of body width, wider spaced shock towers and more forward front seating in the BRZ creates much more trunk space than the Z, with the rear seats folded down in the BRZ. The longer straight 6 engine in the Z necessitates the more rearward position of the driver, eating into the available cargo space behind. I can fit much more in the BRZ than I could in the Z.

Haters will be hatin' - One of the biggest differences between my Z and the BRZ is one of choice - I picked the semi-automatic transmission version of the BRZ (mainly because my wife can't drive a stick and this is a pseudo family car). Y'know what? I don't regret it one bit. After daily driving the Z for the past 28 years with its 5-speed manual transmission, on long and short trips, the novelty of stick shifting has worn out on me. I'm not driving either car at 90%-100% where I might see the differences. I do, however, use the paddle shifters on the BRZ as I still like to have control over what gear I'm driving in. If I happen to miss the total driving experience where I'm one with the machine and want full body engagement, I'll hop on my motorcycle.
Plus, F1 race cars use paddle shifters, and IMHO they're the ultimate driving machines. Paddle shifters = race car.

(<---that's how I look when driving with paddle shifters).

Since all threads are worthless without pics, here are a couple. No need for me to post too many pics of cars you've seen before.

I thought that to best illustrate the physical similarity between the overall side profiles of the Z and BRZ, I'd overlay the images. I didn't have a good side-on view of my BRZ, so I got one off the web of a WRB BRZ. My Z has the same size tires as the BRZ (215/45/R17), which is why they're the same size. I overlaid the BRZ over the Z with the front axle as the common reference point. You can see the differences in wheel base and driver position (the BRZ has a shorter hood and forward-set windshield), but as far as the side profile of the hood, and height/curvature of the roof goes, they're not that far off from each other. If the FR-S and BRZ are the twins, the S30/Z is a cousin.

The other pics are of my 280Z and my DGM BRZ limited, obviously.

Anyways - you can see why I was so drawn to the BRZ/FR-S and finally chose it to replace my Z. I'm not sure if I'm going to spend another 28 years with the BRZ, but it's off to a good start.

FRyeS · 04-28-2013, 07:05 PM

good read - and that Z is gorgeous...

campy · 04-28-2013, 07:54 PM

Rare to see any Datsuns not completely rusted through. Almost a shame you're selling it but I can't blame you lol

86BRZ · 04-28-2013, 08:19 PM

Nice Z! And I am sure the BRZ will be that way. Congrats on both!

shiumai · 04-29-2013, 09:16 AM

Thanks fellas - as much as I like the Z, it was time to get a new daily driver. Rust free and unmodified Zs are rare nowadays for sure. I'm wondering how many stock BRZ/FRS's we'll see 35 years from now and what they'll be worth.

Xdragonxb0i · 05-01-2013, 10:41 PM

god i want that Z

SliverBrz · 05-02-2013, 12:51 AM

that z is beautiful.

Its crazy how close the BRZ is to it in terms of proportion.

OmarGC · 05-02-2013, 03:18 AM

I also have an s30 zeto, however they haven't been at one place at the same time. What other board are you on?

Edit: also you military? Notice your cars are reg'd in different states... I keep mine all reg'd in fl for good reason lol

Rampage · 05-02-2013, 08:03 AM

I owned a 280Z before my first son was born. I loved it but it had to go when there was no place for a wife plus a baby seat. After the kids were grown, I got the replacement Z that I had promised myself. This one was a 350Z. I liked it but it did not have that same light minuscule feel that I was looking for. So it went away and was replaced by my Toyota MR-S.

When I first saw the FT86 design, I immediately thought 240Z! I saw my first one at the NAIAS in Detroit in Jan 2012 and it only reinforced my belief that this car is the 240Z reincarnated.

After much soul searching, I decided to keep my 2ZZ MR-S instead of getting one of the twins because I have a lot of time and mods in it that would have to be repeated in a new car. Plus the FT86 did not end up being quite as light nor is it quite as inexpensive as I had hoped.

If anything ever happens to my MR-S then I will replace it with a FR-S.

I still miss my original Z.

ZDan · 05-02-2013, 02:24 PM

Should be pointed out that the S30 is more of a dedicated sports car with more "cab-rearward" giving 50/50 weight distribution vs. the 55/45 of the twins.

Look at the relative spacing between the front of the doors and the front wheel openings and the back of the doors and the rear wheel openings.

The FT86 cars have a lot more in common with the S13 240SX/Silvia than the S30. Which is not a bad thing at all!

I think they should make a minimalist dedicated 2-seat sports car on the FR-S/BRZ platform with the engine/transmission, firewall, windshield and front-seaters moved a good 20" aft. Instant modern 2000GT!

shiumai · 05-02-2013, 03:54 PM

omar - not in the military. Z was in my stepdad's name until recently, which is why it was registered out of state where my folks live. this is the only car board i'm on currently - i did make have a dozen posts on one of the Z boards under the same name - forgot which one.

ZDan - agreed.

fistpoint · 05-04-2013, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SliverBrz

that z is beautiful.

Its crazy how close the BRZ is to it in terms of proportion.

I was thinking that too, unless he altered one of the images...lets ask?

shiumai · 05-05-2013, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fistpoint

I was thinking that too, unless he altered one of the images...lets ask?

no alteration - they're just overlaid as close as i could and scaled based on measurements of my own cars. you can do the same with any good photo, as long as you have scale references.

they both have the same size wheel/tire, so you can see that the scale is pretty close.

Rogues Gambit · 06-21-2019, 12:19 PM

Your two cars are my goals, surprised how similar they basically are!

Definitely a good read, if I wasn't working, I'd give a longer answer, but definitely pimptastic!

04-28-2013, 06:32 PM	#1
shiumai Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Drives: 2013 DGM BRZ, 2020 C8 Corvette Location: USofA! Posts: 1,760 Thanks: 963 Thanked 1,893 Times in 787 Posts Mentioned: 41 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	BRZ/FR-S vs. Datsun S30/280Z size and styling The GT86, FR-S and BRZ are the latest offerings in the genre of the 'affordable sports car'; and the level of enthusiasm and following that they've garnered in such a short time will surely cement its place in sports car history along with the other 'classics'. The Nissan S30 (Datsun Z) is one member of that hall of fame, and I've been driving a 1978 280Z since 1985. The 280Z was the last in the line of the S30 model, and IMHO had already lost some of the 'fun, simple sports car' concept that started out with the original 240Z in 1969, with its ungainly crash bumpers and fuel injected engine vs. carbs. I consider the S30 body style 'classic' and timeless, with the later ZX models and latest iterations of the 300/350/370 a deviation from the original fun, low horsepower concept. My 28-year relationship with the Z has been full of highs and lows, as maintaining a 35 year old car can be both expensive and time consuming. Okay for a project/weekend car or single-guy's car, but not so good for a 2nd family car (our main family car is a 2013 Subaru Outback in dark grey metallic). So, when I made the decision to finally consider a new car, I started looking early last year. I originally thought of going the compact 4-door practical approach, but I think that I identified so much with the Z that I wanted something 'similar', but could still carry my 5-year old in the back occasionally, and that my wife could drive (only in an emergency of the most dire kind). I shared the different options I was considering with my wife, even showing her a Mini, and she said 'I can't picture you in a Mini. That's not you. Get the BRZ.' I was drawn to the BRZ because it promised everything the original Z did, and met my family requirements, so from that time on, I followed the release of the twins in great anticipation. When I finally got the BRZ in grey, and it was sitting side by side with the Z in the garage, I noticed how similar they were in dimensions and overall shape. I'm obviously not the first one to compare the BRZ to the S30 of course; they've been compared from the start and there are other articles on the net that have done so already. But it's one thing to read about it and look at numbers, and another to have them next to each other physically. While the S30 and GT86 are separated by 42 years, both of them draw from the Toyota 2000GT for styling inspiration so it follows that they'd share some similarities. I'm in the process of selling my beloved Z, so I thought that I'd post this quick comparo before it's gone (update: the Z has now been sold). Length - One thing I did with my Z was get rid of the ugly front bumper and replace it with a fiberglass air dam. Hence, the overall length of my Z is slightly shorter than the original 280Z. My 280Z comes in at 168" (not counting the rear bumper rubber protrusions), which is remarkably close to the 167" listed for the BRZ. What's amazing about this is that the BRZ has rear seats. Yeah, they can hardly be considered as such, but my kid still fits there. He can sit cross-legged when he gets bigger so I'm starting him on yoga lessons in a couple of years. The BRZ accomplishes this feat by having a 10" longer wheel base at 101" (the two-seat Z's have a wheel base of 91"). Coincidentally, the 280Z 2+2 model (with equally small rear seats) had a wheel base of 101", but the stretched version looked ungainly while the BRZ doesn't. Height and width - My Z is lowered an inch, same as my BRZ, but the stock height of a Z is 50" and the BRZ stock height is 50.6" - again, remarkably close. There's a relatively big difference in width, though, as the BRZ has a width of 70", and the Z is narrower at 64". The 6" difference in width accounts for the squatter, more aggressive look of the BRZ. Weight - the original 280Z weighed in at 2875 lbs compared to the 2776 lbs for the BRZ limited. My removal of the heavy front bumper on the Z and replacing the fuel injection system with triple Webers probably puts them a lot closer than than the 100 lb original difference. Daily drivability and utility - This is a difficult one, as the BRZ is so much more refined than the 280Z, and almost like a luxury car in comparison, with all the bells and whistles. The creaks, squeaks, rattles and noise that the Z produces would send a BRZ or FR-S owner into hysterics for fear of their car falling apart. While it's not really fair to compare a 35 year old car with a brand new one, apart from the age-related differences, the driving experience is more similar than not. My slightly lowered Z is a moderately stiff ride so going to the BRZ's ride wasn't a big step - I can feel the road quite well in either of them. I definitely felt 'at home' quickly in the BRZ, coming from the Z, with their envelopes being so close and both being RWD vehicles. The BRZ is a bit harder to get in and out of because the door is longer to accommodate the +2 seating in the rear. That, combined with the more forward seating position means that I sometimes have to contort myself to get into the BRZ when someone has parked too close to me and I can't open the door very far. The driver's seat in the Z is located further behind, and the door is almost a foot shorter, so it's easier to get in and out of. When parking, the long nose of the Z takes a bit more getting used to than the BRZ, but on the other hand, rearward visibility through the hatch back on the Z is better when backing up. The difference in seating position between the two is still screwing me up, even though both cars are the same length. I'm still getting used to the whereabouts of the BRZ's extremities in relation to me. For being the same length, the BRZ has more usable space. Yes, that's a funny statement, but I'm comparing it to a Z. The additional 6" of body width, wider spaced shock towers and more forward front seating in the BRZ creates much more trunk space than the Z, with the rear seats folded down in the BRZ. The longer straight 6 engine in the Z necessitates the more rearward position of the driver, eating into the available cargo space behind. I can fit much more in the BRZ than I could in the Z. Haters will be hatin' - One of the biggest differences between my Z and the BRZ is one of choice - I picked the semi-automatic transmission version of the BRZ (mainly because my wife can't drive a stick and this is a pseudo family car). Y'know what? I don't regret it one bit. After daily driving the Z for the past 28 years with its 5-speed manual transmission, on long and short trips, the novelty of stick shifting has worn out on me. I'm not driving either car at 90%-100% where I might see the differences. I do, however, use the paddle shifters on the BRZ as I still like to have control over what gear I'm driving in. If I happen to miss the total driving experience where I'm one with the machine and want full body engagement, I'll hop on my motorcycle. Plus, F1 race cars use paddle shifters, and IMHO they're the ultimate driving machines. Paddle shifters = race car. (<---that's how I look when driving with paddle shifters). Since all threads are worthless without pics, here are a couple. No need for me to post too many pics of cars you've seen before. I thought that to best illustrate the physical similarity between the overall side profiles of the Z and BRZ, I'd overlay the images. I didn't have a good side-on view of my BRZ, so I got one off the web of a WRB BRZ. My Z has the same size tires as the BRZ (215/45/R17), which is why they're the same size. I overlaid the BRZ over the Z with the front axle as the common reference point. You can see the differences in wheel base and driver position (the BRZ has a shorter hood and forward-set windshield), but as far as the side profile of the hood, and height/curvature of the roof goes, they're not that far off from each other. If the FR-S and BRZ are the twins, the S30/Z is a cousin. The other pics are of my 280Z and my DGM BRZ limited, obviously. Anyways - you can see why I was so drawn to the BRZ/FR-S and finally chose it to replace my Z. I'm not sure if I'm going to spend another 28 years with the BRZ, but it's off to a good start. Attached Images Last edited by shiumai; 09-07-2014 at 08:16 PM.

05-01-2013, 10:41 PM	#6
Xdragonxb0i Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Drives: ex500r Location: AR Posts: 859 Thanks: 13 Thanked 105 Times in 77 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	god i want that Z __________________

05-02-2013, 03:18 AM	#8
OmarGC My FR-S has 5 gears Join Date: Aug 2012 Drives: FRS/280z/Tundra Location: St. Louis Posts: 1,994 Thanks: 626 Thanked 1,065 Times in 572 Posts Mentioned: 49 Post(s) Tagged: 3 Thread(s)	I also have an s30 zeto, however they haven't been at one place at the same time. What other board are you on? Edit: also you military? Notice your cars are reg'd in different states... I keep mine all reg'd in fl for good reason lol __________________ Omar GC 2JZ - 6870 - stock block - 1000whp? Instagram: 2jzus

05-02-2013, 08:03 AM	#9
Rampage Senior Member/Old Fanboi Join Date: Nov 2011 Drives: 2000 2ZZ-GE MR2 Spyder HT Location: Back home in Ohio now Posts: 2,446 Thanks: 1,931 Thanked 2,014 Times in 915 Posts Mentioned: 16 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I owned a 280Z before my first son was born. I loved it but it had to go when there was no place for a wife plus a baby seat. After the kids were grown, I got the replacement Z that I had promised myself. This one was a 350Z. I liked it but it did not have that same light minuscule feel that I was looking for. So it went away and was replaced by my Toyota MR-S. When I first saw the FT86 design, I immediately thought 240Z! I saw my first one at the NAIAS in Detroit in Jan 2012 and it only reinforced my belief that this car is the 240Z reincarnated. After much soul searching, I decided to keep my 2ZZ MR-S instead of getting one of the twins because I have a lot of time and mods in it that would have to be repeated in a new car. Plus the FT86 did not end up being quite as light nor is it quite as inexpensive as I had hoped. If anything ever happens to my MR-S then I will replace it with a FR-S. I still miss my original Z. __________________ So many modders have more cents than sense!

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04-28-2013, 07:05 PM	#2
FRyeS Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Drives: 2013 FR-S Asphalt 6MT Location: Midwest Posts: 116 Thanks: 109 Thanked 83 Times in 26 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	good read - and that Z is gorgeous...

04-28-2013, 07:54 PM	#3
campy No rice, no life Join Date: Dec 2012 Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 1,143 Thanks: 266 Thanked 1,019 Times in 388 Posts Mentioned: 7 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Rare to see any Datsuns not completely rusted through. Almost a shame you're selling it but I can't blame you lol

04-28-2013, 08:19 PM	#4
86BRZ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Drives: BRZ Limited arrived on 9/1/2012 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 563 Thanks: 312 Thanked 145 Times in 105 Posts Mentioned: 8 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Nice Z! And I am sure the BRZ will be that way. Congrats on both!

04-29-2013, 09:16 AM	#5
shiumai Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Drives: 2013 DGM BRZ, 2020 C8 Corvette Location: USofA! Posts: 1,760 Thanks: 963 Thanked 1,893 Times in 787 Posts Mentioned: 41 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	Thanks fellas - as much as I like the Z, it was time to get a new daily driver. Rust free and unmodified Zs are rare nowadays for sure. I'm wondering how many stock BRZ/FRS's we'll see 35 years from now and what they'll be worth.

05-02-2013, 12:51 AM	#7
SliverBrz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Drives: Silver 2013 BRZ limited Location: Los angeles Posts: 801 Thanks: 45 Thanked 184 Times in 125 Posts Mentioned: 3 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	that z is beautiful. Its crazy how close the BRZ is to it in terms of proportion.

05-02-2013, 02:24 PM	#10
ZDan Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Drives: '23 BRZ Location: Providence, RI Posts: 4,584 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,891 Times in 2,032 Posts Mentioned: 85 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Should be pointed out that the S30 is more of a dedicated sports car with more "cab-rearward" giving 50/50 weight distribution vs. the 55/45 of the twins. Look at the relative spacing between the front of the doors and the front wheel openings and the back of the doors and the rear wheel openings. The FT86 cars have a lot more in common with the S13 240SX/Silvia than the S30. Which is not a bad thing at all! I think they should make a minimalist dedicated 2-seat sports car on the FR-S/BRZ platform with the engine/transmission, firewall, windshield and front-seaters moved a good 20" aft. Instant modern 2000GT!

05-02-2013, 03:54 PM	#11
shiumai Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Drives: 2013 DGM BRZ, 2020 C8 Corvette Location: USofA! Posts: 1,760 Thanks: 963 Thanked 1,893 Times in 787 Posts Mentioned: 41 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	omar - not in the military. Z was in my stepdad's name until recently, which is why it was registered out of state where my folks live. this is the only car board i'm on currently - i did make have a dozen posts on one of the Z boards under the same name - forgot which one. ZDan - agreed.

06-21-2019, 12:19 PM	#14
Rogues Gambit Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Drives: '19 Ram Rebel, planning on a BRZ Location: Eatontown, NJ Posts: 70 Thanks: 74 Thanked 31 Times in 21 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Your two cars are my goals, surprised how similar they basically are! Definitely a good read, if I wasn't working, I'd give a longer answer, but definitely pimptastic!

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