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Old 07-20-2015, 01:04 PM   #1
Shiv@Openflash
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Smile Australian Dyno Dyno Results

Hi guys,
Just got an email from a customer down under. Name's and registration/license plates withheld to protect the innocent:

"We had a dyno day here I did not go but Wayno did and a couple of car's me and [name withheld] had tweaked their E85 tunes went

All that done power wise was correct fueling due maf scaling being different and adjust load limits
mainly due to out Guaranteed 85% ethanol fuel at pump here.
cam and ignition timing unchanged.

The two highest HP (or Kw cars non boosted) were basically running tweaked oft tune [name withheld] and [name withheld]

made almost 140kw with tweaked oft tune X force (quite cheap EL chinese header) and high flow catted front pipe both had stock intake.

Stock Manual 86 makes about 110kw on that dyno
Stock Auto makes about 105 Kw ([name withheld] car)

Local tuner was Coyote tuning."



My comments: Results are in Kw (kilowatts). Good showing by all. It's great to see community driven tuning effort result in performance rivaling professional tuning shops. My opinion is that "open source" tuning efforts have an advantage over conventional closed single tuner approaches simply because everything is out in the open and there have been more heads involved in development/testing. It's also clear that there are many individual consumers who are just as good at tuning than people who do this professionally. Nice to see validation of that

Cheers
shiv

Last edited by Shiv@Openflash; 07-21-2015 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:09 PM   #2
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I'll do it
140 wKw = 187.74 whp
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:34 PM   #3
Shiv@Openflash
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I'll do it
140 wKw = 187.74 whp
Yep, it was measured with a Dyno Dynamics dyno. Awesome dyno (realtime graphing, high resolution, etc,.). They read about 12% lower than the US-made Dynojet.

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Old 07-20-2015, 01:54 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash View Post
Yep, it was measured with a Dyno Dynamics dyno. Awesome dyno (realtime graphing, high resolution, etc,.). They read about 12% lower than the US-made Dynojet.
Thanks for the extra background info on this session. That 12% dyno read difference puts these results just above par with what we've seen with UEL+e85 on U.S. Dynojets. I think the high-flow cat front pipe may have chipped in a few whp. I'll say this much, the performance seen in your tunes has been consistent as a clock for this platform. Good stuff man.
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:22 PM   #5
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Petrol in Australia ie our 98 RON is not much good probably not quite up to your 91 AKI (MON) stuff in usa/canada. So results are varied

Once you get on E85 its a big jump and more consistent


The Stock tune knocks a lot on 98 RON
seen guys with IAM at 0.3 to 0.5 and still getting 3 degrees FLKC on stock car with stock tune.
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Old 07-20-2015, 07:15 PM   #6
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was great to see how your canned tune performed on par if not out performed some local dyno tuned cars here.

there have been some heated discussion before and you can't argue with facts/proven results. some of those people have gone quiet now.
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Old 07-20-2015, 07:41 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nardi330 View Post
was great to see how your canned tune performed on par if not out performed some local dyno tuned cars here.

there have been some heated discussion before and you can't argue with facts/proven results. some of those people have gone quiet now.
Tunes that were developed on a dyno often fall prey to air contamination issues. This is because most dyno shops don't have adequate fresh air circulation. So you end up with dirty air after long tuning sessions. The inert exhaust contaminates the air which feeds the engine. So you effectively get a volumetric efficiency drop which, if gone unnoticed, the tuner will unknowingly calibrate for. But then in the real world (clean fresh air), the dyno tuned engine will now run leaner with over-advance. Both of which will result in power loss. I'm not saying this is the issue with the dyno tuned cars you saw at the dyno day. But it is a common issue I've seen over the years. I've fell victim to it several times myself!

Cheers,
shiv
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:05 PM   #8
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For the record, it wasn't me who sent this to shiv.

All the OFT cars are running my modified roms, with the exception of the second highest 139kW one by steve99. None have customised timing or avcs. A couple had some untested MAF tweaks that didn't turn out so well.

The default MAF is the CL (<3V) portion of the 2.06 Stg2 petrol scale + the OL portion of the 2.06 E85 scale. This gives 0 LTFT in OL on our best E85 and makes the OTS tune run about 0.2 AFR leaner. Also a couple of cells in OL are further lean by 1%.

The highest NA E85 MT (140kW) is my modifed rom with stock cat back.
The highest NA E85 AT (131kW) is my car with stock cat back.
The highest NA 98RON MT (122kW) is my modified rom with full bolt ons, and I suspect the person who sent this to shiv :p haha

Generally we see:
MT-AT = 7kW (some of this will be due to not using engine braking, etc in the first 100km).
E85-98 = 15-17kW at best effort.
E85 OFT-Custom = 7kW. There were really no best effort E85 dyno-tuned cars present this time.
98RON OFT-Custom = 0kW.
EL/UEL = Trade 10kW dip for 3-5kW peak

Priorities for making power with exhaust start at the engine and get lower the further away they go. So headers, over pipe, front pipe in that order. Cat-backs are a total waste of money, except for noise.

Intakes similarly are a waste, except perhaps on stock when they intentionally change the AFR - example if you have a rich as fuck AT (which is typical) and put an intake on that makes the AFR leaner and consequently more reasonable, you'll make more power. When tuned you'll make zilch.


The below is for same dyno with same settings but different season. Some power could be attributed to the cold, but the improved AFR curves compared to the OTS tunes come down to load limit changes and MAF adjustment. Adjusting the MAF on the AT was impossible with the unpredictability of hitting the load limits. And it would go super rich between 3k-4k which the MT didn't do as much, which was also fixed with intentionally hitting load limit in that area. I went in circles before Kodename provided definitions for the load limit tables.

Neither of these cars has ever been tuned on a dyno, but comparing data collected on the previous day helped.


For me personally, I'm disappointed the AT Engine loads and AFR's were never tested in OTS tunes. But I'm glad I there's solid timing and avcs to work from. I'm happy with the results and I can move on to other things now.


PREVIOUS DYNO DAY: OTS 2.06 Stg2 UEL E85 AT with headers, overpipe and stock FP and cat-back.
Log:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/206-stg2-u...&zoom=893-1084


THIS DYNO DAY: v74.AT1 Same car with same mods except +catted FP. Still stock cat-back.
Log:
http://datazap.me/u/wayne/v74-9-dyno...5&zoom=718-900



PREVIOUS DYNO DAY: OTS 2.06 Stg2 EL E85 MT with full exhaust.


THIS DYNO DAY: v77 Same car with same mods except with stock cat-back and the default v77 MAF scale.

Last edited by Wayno; 07-21-2015 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 07-21-2015, 12:29 AM   #9
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@Shiv@Openflash maybe some better redacting the names and licence plates is called for
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Old 07-21-2015, 06:11 PM   #10
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Thumbs up

Sounds like you a great and productive day Wayne. Pity I couldn't make it due to work but thanks again for all you are doing for the community
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Old 07-22-2015, 03:31 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash View Post
My comments: Results are in Kw (kilowatts). Good showing by all. It's great to see community driven tuning effort result in performance rivaling professional tuning shops. My opinion is that "open source" tuning efforts have an advantage over conventional closed single tuner approaches simply because everything is out in the open and there have been more heads involved in development/testing. It's also clear that there are many individual consumers who are just as good at tuning than people who do this professionally. Nice to see validation of that

Cheers
shiv
I was very unhappy with the fuel economy of the 2.06 E85 tune on AT, the huge AFR dip between 3k and 4k, the weird lumpy AFR curve, etc. I was considering seeing the local tuner but wasn't comfortable for these reasons:
1. Locked tunes - i know I'd certainly not be happy with this or that and want to change and test things myself and not have to take days off work to go see someone.
2. All the tuner's clients do is suck the tuner off in social media, continually spewing whatever he tells them because they're generally people who never bother to do their own research or work on their own cars. It really makes the tuner look bad, even though he may very well be excellent. Not all of them are like it, but the verbose ones unfortunately are spoonfed and ignorant.
3. Seeing results of the same car as mine with (more expensive versions of) the same parts and a $1000 custom dyno tune get lower results than the OTS tune which I knew was under performing compared to exact same tune on MT. I suspect the higher the profile the car (big turbo, track work, etc), the more effort the tuner puts in for the same price, where as an everyday joe gets nothing more than a canned tune with maybe a few maf scale cells updated if they're lucky.

I'm so glad I didn't take the easy way out and opt to have someone else solve my problems. Those same people above with locked tunes still complain about trivial things like their car taking multiple cranks to start, which is a 5 min fix using the maps publicly available on this forum. Meanwhile a month after we post maps that solve that here in April, the tuner releases cranking updates on their FB in May (only for MT though).

My car hasn't taken more than one crank with high E(85 minimum) blend all winter. I was getting about 13.5L/100km with 2.06, on an AT!! Now I get 7.8L/100km highway, 10-11L/100km city and I have more "area under the curve" than a $1000 full day dyno tune on same car with same parts (AT, UEL, E85), as seen below - opaque is mine, transparent is custom dyno tune. This is with zero tuning experience before this car and no dyno tuning.

I haven't figured anything out for myself with any originality, all the changes I've made to fix my tune are from knowledge from others shared publicly on this forum, because open source!

Note: the AFR scales are not lined up.
AT, PSR UEL, catted FP, stock cat back, E85, OFT (opaque) vs
AT, Tomei UEL, catted FP, stock cat back, E85, $1000 dyno tune (transparent)
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Wayno; 07-22-2015 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 07-22-2015, 04:57 AM   #12
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@Wayno you need to give yourself some credit you have worked out and tested, trialled learnt and shared plenty knoledge.

Without open source tunes by the OFT guys , romraider guys for definitions and info especially @Td-d , and guys on this and romraider forums i would know nothing about tuning or flashing ect not that i know much just the basics but the learning is what its all about for me
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