$17000 dampers vs $200 sway bar

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by bmacfrs

What front bar do you have on it?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Just the standard bar.

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Dampers are generally not intended to control body roll.

I'm considering softer than stock front and rear bars for my car, but that's for gravel. It may make things a little worse on tarmac. Cusco has a 16mm front bar and a hollow 14mm rear (and there's the Mann bar).[/url]


- Andrew

So far with this car the set up is primarily for rough and ugly tarmac, even though much of its work will be on dirt.
My thoughts are the (small-ish) set up compromises in the dirt will be happening at slower speeds than visa versa on bitumen. ( it will never have the needed travel to take full advantage of these dampers on dirt)
The stiffer bar had a noticeable effect on the inside wheels droop response.
One other effect that the driver noted ( that I dont have the skills to detect) was a slight but undesirable diagonal effect front to back, which disappeared after going back to the softer bar.
I’ll be really interested in your experiences with the softer bars you are thinking about.

Lyndon

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Just for kicks...check out the landings in this video. Very different damper valving than what you see on a good road course set up!

- Andrew

I'm guessing BC Racing, right?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I'm guessing BC Racing, right?

lol

[strat61caster]

Interesting, I've never heard of BOS before.

https://www.bos-suspension.com/

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Interesting, I've never heard of BOS before.

https://www.bos-suspension.com/

I only know of them in the mountain bike world. Didn't know they made products for other sports.

[Icecreamtruk]

Keep in mind that this is an apples to oranges case for people reading this post and thinking that a smaller bar is always better, specially for more focused track work. With how our suspensions are designed, I dont think you'll ever get away with no bar at all. Also, the same way some people are putting too much effort into trying to control body roll, too many people are also neglecting the negatives of body roll. We have a mcpherson strut up front, body roll = loss camber on outer wheel, we dont gain camber on compression so controlling body roll is kind of a big deal actually.

Personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt, but stiffer bars all around with stiff springs all around was way better for me than those same springs and stock bars. It felt better, and was faster. Track car, so I dont give two fling f**ks about "compliance" or "harsness", if its faster, its better.

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

Keep in mind that this is an apples to oranges case for people reading this post and thinking that a smaller bar is always better, specially for more focused track work. With how our suspensions are designed, I dont think you'll ever get away with no bar at all. Also, the same way some people are putting too much effort into trying to control body roll, too many people are also neglecting the negatives of body roll. We have a mcpherson strut up front, body roll = loss camber on outer wheel, we dont gain camber on compression so controlling body roll is kind of a big deal actually.

Personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt, but stiffer bars all around with stiff springs all around was way better for me than those same springs and stock bars. It felt better, and was faster. Track car, so I dont give two fling f**ks about "compliance" or "harsness", if its faster, its better.

I can't talk about track work, I have zero experience, and like I said, my set up is for back road/dirt use.

I don't know where you are seeing "too many people are also neglecting the negatives of body roll" or people who are "thinking smaller bar is always better".

Most people's first thoughts to make a car handle "better" is to stiffen the springs, thicken the roll bar and lower the car.

The majority (but not all) of the aftermarket suspension industry is based on selling/reinforcing the idea of stiffening/lowering the crap out of everything.
Too much body roll is not exactly a rampant problem at the moment.

In reality my car would probably not be suitable for your track work and your car would be slower on the roads I drive. Compliance can be faster.

Horses for courses.

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

I can't talk about track work, I have zero experience, and like I said, my set up is for back road/dirt use.

I don't know where you are seeing "too many people are also neglecting the negatives of body roll" or people who are "thinking smaller bar is always better".

Most people's first thoughts to make a car handle "better" is to stiffen the springs, thicken the roll bar and lower the car.

The majority (but not all) of the aftermarket suspension industry is based on selling/reinforcing the idea of stiffening/lowering the crap out of everything.
Too much body roll is not exactly a rampant problem at the moment.

In reality my car would probably not be suitable for your track work and your car would be slower on the roads I drive. Compliance can be faster.

Horses for courses.

Yes I totally agree with you and your post, I think I came across as an a..hole but that was not my intention. Trying to be more specific, what I meant when I said too many people neglecting body roll I speak for those who actually drive on race tracks often and are good at it. The casual slam and park kid will always lower and stiff the crap out of everything, I dont care for them. But like, there's a lot of the fast people here that neglect body roll and the usage of larger bars and stiffer springs. Just because they can go fast in just about anything that has wheels does not mean that what they run or think is fast is the best. Thats what I was trying to say.

Also, absolutely agree with different setups for different purposes, your car is build for more compliance over uneven or loose surfaces, my car is build for moderate aero loads on smooth track surfaces. I was more of trying to say to people reading this post that because a soft springs and bars with good dampers works for your application, it wont necessarly work for them.

[steverife]

If we aren't defining and agreeing on what we consider is stiff and soft, we are just talking at each other.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

With how our suspensions are designed, I dont think you'll ever get away with no bar at all.

I was tracking my car without sways with 8k/10k springs on V70A, V710 and Z214 tyres.

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

Yes I totally agree with you and your post, I think I came across as an a..hole but that was not my intention. Trying to be more specific, what I meant when I said too many people neglecting body roll I speak for those who actually drive on race tracks often and are good at it. The casual slam and park kid will always lower and stiff the crap out of everything, I dont care for them. But like, there's a lot of the fast people here that neglect body roll and the usage of larger bars and stiffer springs. Just because they can go fast in just about anything that has wheels does not mean that what they run or think is fast is the best. Thats what I was trying to say.

Also, absolutely agree with different setups for different purposes, your car is build for more compliance over uneven or loose surfaces, my car is build for moderate aero loads on smooth track surfaces. I was more of trying to say to people reading this post that because a soft springs and bars with good dampers works for your application, it wont necessarly work for them.

No worries, all good, I appreciate what you are saying.
Cheers, Lyndon

[grumpysnapper]

Originally Posted by steverife

If we aren't defining and agreeing on what we consider is stiff and soft, we are just talking at each other.

I guess it's always going to be fairly personal and subjective definition.

But as a reference on these new dampers my car runs standard roll bars front and rear, and 40N/40N (compared to the previous Ohlins SUS MP21 rate of 60N/60N).

Lyndon

( This is a more detailed post on these particular custom dampers/springs https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139592 )

[steverife]

Originally Posted by grumpysnapper

I guess it's always going to be fairly personal and subjective definition.

But as a reference on these new dampers my car runs standard roll bars front and rear, and 40N/40N (compared to the previous Ohlins SUS MP21 rate of 60N/60N).

Lyndon

( This is a more detailed post on these particular custom dampers/springs https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139592 )

Yeah. I run 70N/70N (I think?) with a hollow 25mm front bar on soft and a Mann rear bar softer than stock.

That's pretty standard for my application (autocross), but some might call that soft, some might call that stiff.