BRZ vs E46 M3

[strat61caster]

Depends on the driving you do.

A well setup E46 M3 drives incredibly sweet, hell the same can be said for any E46 I'd wager. It's undoubtedly heavier and larger, great for a nice weekend drive, less great if you want to huck it into a corner at 10/10ths, but still more awesome than 99% of the cars on the road.

I think there's only two things an 86 does better - being chucked into a corner at 10/10ths and being easy to maintain. Sounds like you're not in love with those two attributes and you're just looking at a better car. Go for a test drive and yolo.

[spralwers]

I wouldn't even recommend a regular E46 to someone who expects maintenance to not be high because it won't be a daily driver.

Although if the seller actually fixed everything so you won't have to do anything for the next year (which you'll want to verify via a thorough PPI from a mechanic that knows these cars), and has records on everything that's been done, which will allow you predict what will need to be done the year or two after, you could probably get away with it.

[APEX Race Parts]

These are both drivers cars, so I can appreciate the comparison. With that said, they offer very different driving experiences. If you have seat time in a momentum car, whether it is a Miata or FT-86, you will generally know how to get the most out of a car and I think most would agree that you will be a better driver long term because of it.

I have owned five E46 M3's amongst other generations, and the fact that I kept going back to it after owning newer more powerful cars is a testament to how special the E46 platform is... I suppose it is also a testament to how unstable I am when it comes to car ownership Like any car worth owning the E46 M3 is not without its faults, but if you go into ownership knowing which items to address (some preventatively), the car will take just about anything you throw at it on and off the track. There is a very wide spectrum of aftermarket support, and the cost of ownership does not have to be astronomical. After five of these machines, the only thing I ever came across that was not preventative was a bad starter snd a dead battery. Do not let the internet reviews fool you.

The car does not have overwhelming amounts of power by today's standards, but with catless headers, a tune and 3:91 or 4:10 gears the car really comes alive. Combine those basic mods with good suspension, a little weight reduction (or alot if it is a full-time track/race car), and most importantly the right maintenance knocked out and you have either a VERY capable dual duty car or dedicated track/race car at a very palatable price point. I'm a big fan of the S65 V8 powerplant in the E9X M3 (current track weapon for me), but I will say that the E46 M3 body lines are gorgeous and timeless - one of the best looking cars BMW has ever made.

If you purchase a car from a quality/reputable forum member (there are plenty who refuse to move on from M3forum ), it is highly likely some/many of the items below have already been addressed. Do not waste your time or money trying to find a car with ridiculously low miles. These cars like to be driven, and I have always prioritized buying a car that was well maintained by a passionate enthusiast rather than a garage queen with a ridiculous price tag.

Noteworthy Items

Big Items:

-Subframe: The rear subframe needs an occasional checkup as it is known to be a weak point and in some cases begins to crack. Not to worry, a subframe reinforcement job will either prevent any issues from arising or fix an existing issue.

-Rod bearings: Earlier '01 - '02 cars IIRC are the ones to watch that have not had the recall performed

-Vanos: Bulletproof the vanos unit by freshening it up with new components

-Valve Adjustment Schedule: This car needs periodic valve adjustments to ensure it is running in tip-top shape. Do not skimp out on these.

Small Items:

-CPV o-ring: This little o-ring on the side of the block is known to dry out and weep oil over time. No major issue here, and just a few dollars to replace if you do it yourself.

-Rear quarter window trim & Windshield cowling: These plastic trim pieces tend to dry out from sun exposure over time. Easy and cheap to fix.

Modifications/Upgrades Suggested For Track Prep:
-Square (rotatable) set of light 18" wheels with a 265 or 275 compound that is on par with your on-track experience
-Good Suspension with adjustable camber plates
-High temp brake fluid (Castrol SRF & Endless RF-650 are my favorites)
-Brake pads (Pagid Yellow RS-29 & PFC-08 are my favorites)
-Cooling system refresh (Radiator, water pump, t-state, hoses, reservoir etc.)

Modifications if You Desire More Power/Punch
-Catless headers (you can add high flow cats back into section 2 if desired)
-Tune
-3:91 or 4:10 gears (which depends on the track layouts you frequent and how often you commute with the car)

* Yes, the carbon fiber CSL airbox is a beautiful mod that puts out a great induction soundtrack, but it is not necessary or worth the money from an ROI standpoint. With that said, if you have the extra cash it is a very cool "iconic" piece to have.

If you want an E46 M3 that will hold its value (or even possibly rise in value), purchase a '2003.5+ three pedal car. I've owned SMG equipped cars, and with a CSL tune they were not so bad. With that said, 6 speed is the way to go. If you really want the "it" car, get a slicktop (non-sunroof).

Here is a link to our E46 M3 photo album for motivation: LINK


- Ryan

[bfrank1972]

Wow, excellent summary

[squelchy451]

Kinda off the beaten path here, but how do these cars compare on the highway? I already know that both these cars deliver a well-balanced and communicative driving experience, and these are on the top of my list if my GTI was to ever go six feet under.

One thing I enjoy the most about the GTI is that you can just cruise on the highway. The steering tracks true, it's heavy enough that you don't have to make tons of adjustments, it doesn't get thrown off by a bit of wind or just by how loose the steering as my old Mazda 3 was. The GTI has a good signal-to-noise ratio by cutting down on the noise--it's very refined. I have a feeling the BRZ will match, or better, the signal-to-noise ratio, but with more noise.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by squelchy451

One thing I enjoy the most about the GTI is that you can just cruise on the highway. The steering tracks true, it's heavy enough that you don't have to make tons of adjustments, it doesn't get thrown off by a bit of wind or just by how loose the steering as my old Mazda 3 was. The GTI has a good signal-to-noise ratio by cutting down on the noise--it's very refined. I have a feeling the BRZ will match, or better, the signal-to-noise ratio, but with more noise.

German cars can achieve like 7+ degrees caster with the front wheel alignment you'll find it hard press to achieve that with a Japanese car.

If you are thinking of a highway cruiser with refined NVH I'm afraid you are looking at the wrong type of cars. Better stick with VW/Audi.

That being said I actually got rid of my MkV Golf GTI for the BRZ and no regrets. The agile and lively handling alone is night and day but then again they are not the same type of cars, GTI is a hot hatch made fast from a normal Golf, whereas BRZ is a purposely built sports car platform.

[squelchy451]

Originally Posted by krayzie

German cars can achieve like 7+ degrees caster with the front wheel alignment you'll find it hard press to achieve that with a Japanese car.

If you are thinking of a highway cruiser with refined NVH I'm afraid you are looking at the wrong type of cars. Better stick with VW/Audi.

That being said I actually got rid of my MkV Golf GTI for the BRZ and no regrets. The agile and lively handling alone is night and day but then again they are not the same type of cars, GTI is a hot hatch made fast from a normal Golf, whereas BRZ is a purposely built sports car platform.

I think I am more sensitive to how the EPS is tuned. I just want it to be as heavy as it can be on center. The Mazda 3 i had previously was running 6.5 degrees of caster up front, GTI is not much more than that, with around 7 degrees.


On one hand it is true that the GTI is not a sports car, just a tuned Golf hatchback, but its main appeal is that the handling is good enough where making it a better driver's car makes it harder to daily/on the wallet.


If the next couple years shows that the GTI is a reliable specimen, i'll just throw in HPA SHS coilovers to make it a comfortable daily and try to pick up a 2017+ BRZ.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by squelchy451

Kinda off the beaten path here, but how do these cars compare on the highway? I already know that both these cars deliver a well-balanced and communicative driving experience, and these are on the top of my list if my GTI was to ever go six feet under.

One thing I enjoy the most about the GTI is that you can just cruise on the highway. The steering tracks true, it's heavy enough that you don't have to make tons of adjustments, it doesn't get thrown off by a bit of wind or just by how loose the steering as my old Mazda 3 was.

I've got a mk6 GTI and an FR-S.

The FR-S has heavier, tighter steering than the GTI. But it's also a much quicker rack in terms of the ratio, so even small steering inputs will have a big impact. Personally I love the responsiveness of the FR-S. The quick rack makes turn-in sharper and I haven't had any issues on long highway drives, but it's probably subjective. I know some people would describe it as slightly darty.

Originally Posted by squelchy451

The GTI has a good signal-to-noise ratio by cutting down on the noise--it's very refined. I have a feeling the BRZ will match, or better, the signal-to-noise ratio, but with more noise.

That's a good way of looking at it. The FR-S offers a lot more feedback, but at the expense of more "noise" overall.

For most, the FR-S will be the more fun car on back roads or track. And the GTI will be the better car to eat up long miles on the highway. It's quieter, smoother, more refined, and has plenty of midrange torque.

[m86]

Originally Posted by squelchy451

Kinda off the beaten path here, but how do these cars compare on the highway? I already know that both these cars deliver a well-balanced and communicative driving experience, and these are on the top of my list if my GTI was to ever go six feet under.

One thing I enjoy the most about the GTI is that you can just cruise on the highway. The steering tracks true, it's heavy enough that you don't have to make tons of adjustments, it doesn't get thrown off by a bit of wind or just by how loose the steering as my old Mazda 3 was. The GTI has a good signal-to-noise ratio by cutting down on the noise--it's very refined. I have a feeling the BRZ will match, or better, the signal-to-noise ratio, but with more noise.

I've had an E46 M3 and have now a FRS.

The M3 is better on the highway. The suspension/bushings feel a bit softer, less noisy (unless you go for those 8k) and has a longer gear ratio so you cruise at lower RPMs.

Here is my comparison FRS/M3.

Engine:
No doubt here, the S54 is the clear winner. Only thing I didn't like about it is some ticking noise that you get at very high rpm from the solid valve lifters (you hear the same on other solid lifter cars like the GT3 - it gets worse if valves aren't adjusted).
Both come alive at higher rpms but the S54 is extremely linear in power delivery (no torque dips). In my opinion the gear ratios are too long in the M3.

Noise:
Many people don't like the metallic noise from the M3. I enjoyed it. At high rpm and in WOT I felt like the M3 has a more "powerful" and less artificial noise, both from exhaust and induction, than the FR-s. At idling it also has a bit of a rumbling which is great.

Suspension:
Stock, the FR-S is a bit tighter, stiffer, with less body roll. M3 feels more refined.
I feel like the M3 benefits more from aftermarket suspensions to improve handling. With their age, many M3 also need new subframe and diff bushings which make a difference.

Handling / steering:
Out of the box no doubt the FRS is superior. As said for the suspension, it feels lighter, with a lower center of gravity. Both have equally great steering racks, even though FR-S is electric. FR-S inspires more confidence - I almost immediately could switch all electronics off and go to its limits both on street and track. That did not happen with the M3.

Interior:
M3 is a performance version of the 3-series luxury sedan and the interior is not that different between both. FR-S is a purpose built low cost sports car. This means that M3 is more refined, spacious and is relatively quiet (at least when you are not gunning it). FR-S is very noisy and has cheap materials and seats, and has rattling/buzzing noises. The M3 feels a bit dated inside.