CSG Spec Tein Flex A Owners Thread

[CSG Mike]

@timurrrr are you trying to get the damper to damp less relative to the spring, or the spring to work harder against the damper?

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Double check your preload, and minimize it. Raise the height a bit. It takes VERY LITTLE effort to unintentionally add too much preload, due to the mechanical torque multiplication of turning a collar.

As I said multiple times on this thread, reducing the preload and extending the damper body by the same amount (to keep the ride height) made the harshness unquestionably worse.

I initially set up my coilovers following exactly the "use as little preload as possible, and then set the ride height using the damper body length" advice (post).
With those settings I was getting harshness due to HBS (whether you call it engaging or bottoming out) all the time on the highways (post).

After I did more homework and figured out what functionality of the suspensions those adjustments actually affect, I went ahead and measure everything, and compared with the values recommended in the supplied installation manual. I realized that due to the "as little preload is possible" advice I had ~7 mm less compression travel than recommended (post) at each corner.
I then reduced the damper lengths to match the settings recommended in the manual, and adjusted the preload collar by the same amount to keep my ride height unchaned.
The harshness became much less of an issue, but still an issue. On moderately crappy sections of highways it's not an issue anymore.
I didn't experience any issues with droop travel, so don't have any reasons to believe it was compromised too much.

Having recently discussed preload with you (post), I realized that you're misunderstanding what preload actually does at ride height, and that explains why your advice is the opposite of what I believe in, and confirmed with my own testing.
I'm surprised you keep giving me the same advice, given that I explained why I think it's incorrect.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Recommended settings are a blend of functionality and aesthetics. The As you previously mentioned, you get a lot of HBS engagement on the street. Raising the car will reduce that.

Very much agree that raising the car by adding preload helps reduce HBS engagement.
Having experienced the harshness in my car, I in fact already raised it a few mm per corner higher than recommended settings, and it indeed helped.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Great theoretical exercise, but in actuality, the front wheels will always hit the element first, before the rear wheels. Even if damping frequency was identical in a theoretical situation, in reality, the front oscillation starts and ends first, unless you can magically make both axles hit the element at the same time

I don't think you fully understood the "great theoretical exercise".

It's not "even if identical" frequency in the front and in the rear; it's strictly higher frequency in the rear.
Typically not much higher, only ~.2 Hz higher.
The idea is that the suspension "reacts" to the bump slower in the front by roughly the same amount of time it takes for the rear tires to hit the same bump. This allows the "reaction" of the rear of the car to catch up with the "reaction" of the front of the car.

Also, it doesn't have to be a 100% flat ride difference in Hz before front and rear; the point is that slightly higher in the rear will make the car settle quicker over bumps than some random relation between front and rear.

See also http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets5.html, section called "Spring selection".
He doesn't specifically call this "flat ride", but he precisely explains why he thinks this is the right thing to do.
Also, elsewhere in the book he specifically points out how his car, set up this way, was much more controllable than competitors' in one of the bumpy corners during one of the events.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Typically wheel rates are considered for balance. Wanting more rear spring or sway is normally a desire for more rotation

Unless you're adding spring and reducing sway at the same time to keep the overall balance unchanged.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

There are quite a few adjustable settings on the dampers, and it's definitely not a 1 size fits all.

Real world trial and error is how you validate/invalidate. Even with the best suspension models, real world testing still trumps all. Doing this testing will allow you to reach the settings that are best for you!

Agree, and that's why I'm performing my own "independent" testing now.
Finding incorrect assumptions you make in your answers helps me find new areas for research.

Thanks to #covid19, I verify my theories not only in real life, but also in simulators.
The things I learn in simulators are the most eye-opening, as you can make changes quickly and immediately tell the difference; and so far the results are verifiable at real events.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Actually the 6/6 was picked for a combination of compliance and balance. with a 13-16 rear sway, its pushier, whereas with a 17+ rear sway, the balance is closer to neutral.

That sounds exactly like "we picked the rear spring rate targeting specific balance(s) specifically with stock sway bars stiffnesses".

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

@timurrrr are you trying to get the damper to damp less relative to the spring, or the spring to work harder against the damper?

Umm, neither of these are my goals.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Umm, neither of these are my goals.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Once you preload enough to where the car's load is exceeded by the preload, yes, it will raise the car! Generally speaking though, that's likely too much preload, and will cost droop travel.

Btw, have you read the installation manual supplied with CSG FLAs?
Page 6 in the manual that I received specifically say to adjust the ride height by turning the spring seat (i.e. preload?).

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

I want suspension that is reasonably comfortable on the street and good enough for track days. I believe that's the exact value marketed for CSG FLAs.

What I see on the street is harshness in the front and rocking front-to-back.

As for harshness in the front, I'm afraid we can't do much about due to metal-to-metal top mount?
Other than some isolators, I guess.

As for rocking, having learned what "flat ride" is from 3 independent sources, I realized the problem is the spring rates.
Knowing what I know now, I would have ordered FLAs with different spring rates (6k/8k or 6k/9k) when I was making the order.
And would be happy to pay extra for a CSG-recommended front sway bar for balance. Maybe rear too, if needed.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

I want suspension that is reasonably comfortable on the street and good enough for track days. I believe that's the exact value marketed for CSG FLAs.

What I see on the street is harshness in the front and rocking front-to-back.

As for harshness in the front, I'm afraid we can't do much about due to metal-to-metal top mount?
Other than some isolators, I guess.

As for rocking, having learned what "flat ride" is from 3 independent sources, I realized the problem is the spring rates.
Knowing what I know now, I would have ordered FLAs with different spring rates (6k/8k or 6k/9k) when I was making the order.
And would be happy to pay extra for a CSG-recommended front sway bar for balance. Maybe rear too, if needed.

Coilover springs are fairly inexpensive. For balance, I'd recommend an adjustable front bar. If you want to play it safe, to both adjustable front and rear bars, and start with medium or stiff front with soft rear, assuming a 6/8 or 6/9 spring.

I look forward to your findings!

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Coilover springs are fairly inexpensive. For balance, I'd recommend an adjustable front bar. If you want to play it safe, to both adjustable front and rear bars, and start with medium or stiff front with soft rear, assuming a 6/8 or 6/9 spring.

I look forward to your findings!

Sounds good, thanks! If you happen to be doing some experimentation yourself, let me know of the results.

Let's see if I decide to invest into that at this stage, given that I'll need re-alignment, probably corner balancing, etc.

Any pointers to which specific 8k/9k spring I should order?
Which sway bars have the right range of adjustments?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

While not optimal, you can go up to +2kg on the damper; the rebound valving can handle it.

I presume the bump damping will be insufficient though if I bump up the spring.
Can both bump and rebound be revalved if/when I eventually send my FLAs for a rebuild due to wear? How expensive would that be?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Sounds good, thanks! If you happen to be doing some experimentation yourself, let me know of the results.

Let's see if I decide to invest into that at this stage, given that I'll need re-alignment, probably corner balancing, etc.

Any pointers to which specific 8k/9k spring I should order?
Which sway bars have the right range of adjustments?



I presume the bump damping will be insufficient though if I bump up the spring.
Can both bump and rebound be revalved if/when I eventually send my FLAs for a rebuild due to wear? How expensive would that be?

Stick with Tein, unless you want the energy to be absorbed/released differently.

They can be revalved; standard servicing cost + parts; this can vary due to what may or may not need replacing based on your wear and tear.


Remember, the CSG FLA is ultimately an entry level damper that is proven to ride smoother than stock, while being capable at the track. It's not perfect, and it can't do everything, but it's a great compromise, and unbeatable at its price point.

[timurrrr]

Thanks!

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

They can be revalved; standard servicing cost + parts; this can vary due to what may or may not need replacing based on your wear and tear.

Ballpark? $100? $300? $1000? $3000?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Remember, the CSG FLA is ultimately an entry level damper that is proven to ride smoother than stock, while being capable at the track. It's not perfect, and it can't do everything, but it's a great compromise, and unbeatable at its price point.

That's why I got them in the first place, along with positive reviews on this thread.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Ballpark? $100? $300? $1000? $3000?

Assuming zero damage, and only labor + parts or revalve, maybe 850-1000? Will depend on how many internal components need changing to hit your potential valving spec desire.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Assuming zero damage, and only labor + parts or revalve, maybe 850-1000? Will depend on how many internal components need changing to hit your potential valving spec desire.

Gotcha, thanks!

Any easy way to detect when the dampers need to be rebuilt?

[Var]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

As I said multiple times on this thread, reducing the preload and extending the damper body by the same amount (to keep the ride height) made the harshness unquestionably worse.

Ok..so this is a huge problem for me right now. I adjusted my rear preload to where it's supposed to be, and as you saw in the photo, the rear end of my car was sagging by quite a bit. With all the extra preload removed and a saggy butt, I went for a drive around the block, maybe 2 minutes, just to see if the ride quality had improved. I found that it had not. It's much harsher on the high velocity compression than before the car was lowered. It seems really crashy now. I'm going to remove the wheels and dampers and jack the suspension up and down through the full range of motion to make sure there's no binding, but i'm almost certain there isn't. It's just a ride quality difference.

Why would the ride height affect harshness with these type of shocks where ride height/damper length and preload are independent of each other and stroke length?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

Gotcha, thanks!

Any easy way to detect when the dampers need to be rebuilt?

Without some specific experience, no.

30k mixed miles, or 50 track hours is a good guideline. Because the degradation is gradual over time, you won't notice, but even if you go from that to a freshly serviced set with zero changes, you'll absolutely notice the difference from used to new.

It's no different from going from old tires to new; you don't notice the slow degradation, but the new tire will always feel way better than the old tire.