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Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


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Old 08-26-2016, 09:13 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by prj3ctm4yh3m View Post
would it necessarily be $2k if it's just a caliper and bracket kit that uses stock rotors?
Calipers are typically the most expensive brake component. The least expensive AP Racing caliper we currently offer is $599, or $1200 for a pair. Then you have to get them mounted on the car, which requires a custom adapter bracket. Those would be several hundred dollars more (custom designed in CAD, machined from billet aluminum, then anodized, plus mounting hardware). So now you're looking at at $1500+.

That all assumes that you happen to have the perfect caliper in your parts bin. As stated previously, it's not just as simple as grabbing any old caliper out the parts bin and slapping it on the car. Calipers and discs are typically designed to work together. Think of them like peanut butter and jelly. OEM parts and proper racing parts also typically have some fundamentally different design characteristics and objectives. Mixing and matching the two isn't that simple. Below are some of the basic requirements when looking to mate a particular caliper to a particular disc:
  • Piston sizing- The caliper in question when combined with the OEM rear disc must provide the proper brake torque output, so the front to rear brake bias on the car isn't fouled up. Piston size combined with the disc diameter generates X amount of brake torque.
  • Caliper disc pathway- The caliper also must have the proper disc pathway to accommodate a given disc. OEM discs are typically narrower than the discs mated to racing brake calipers.
    • Thickness/pathway- You can't run a caliper designed for a wider disc on a narrower disc, because you run the risk of over-extending the pistons and getting them cocked in the piston bores.
    • Diameter- Most calipers are also designed to run on a specific range of disc diameters. If you use a disc outside of the caliper's pad radius, you won't have proper pad coverage across the face of the disc. In other words, as the disc outer edge curves, the edge of the pad must perfectly follow that curve. If a disc is too small or too tall in diameter, the pad edges will either not reach the edge of the disc, or hang off the edge of the disc. Those are both bad situations that can cause lots of problems.
    • Radial depth- Pad height, or radial depth, is an important consideration. Most OEM street calipers use a taller pad depth than a racing caliper, as do the discs designed to be run with them. If you run a caliper with a shorter radial depth, the pad won't sweep enough of the disc, leaving a cold spot. There's an acceptable range, but it's not that large.
  • Mounting hole spacing/bracket packaging- Many times the mounting holes on a spindle don't allow a particular caliper to be used. Most racing calipers have a spacing of 152mm or 180mm. The OEM spindle spacing may be quite different than that. That means the adapter bracket has to be designed to attach the caliper to the spindle. A caliper bracket has to be of a certain thickness to provide adequate strength/stiffness. When you insert that bracket under the caliper, it pushes the caliper outward, eliminating the possibility of the caliper riding on the disc properly. Various features on the spindle can physically be in the way of caliper body and where it would need to sit. Packaging is very frequently an issue...just physically getting the caliper to occupy the proper space to properly ride the disc.
  • Parking brake- Not relevant in this application, but a consideration when looking at rear brake systems. Some have a drum-in-hat design, others a separate little parking brake caliper, others use the primary brake caliper. Figuring out how to maintain the parking brake can be a messy affair.
So let's assume you overcome all of the above engineering challenges, and you find the perfect brake caliper in your parts bin that just so happens to ride on the OEM disc perfectly and output the correct amount of brake torque. What have you gained? Since the OEM rear calipers on these cars are already pretty light, you will only save a small amount of weight. The disc will still be the same OEM unit, so your overall system will still be running at roughly the same temperature (running cooler is the primary goal of any big brake kit). The disc will still also weigh the same. It will still look the same. You'll just have a shiny rear caliper that may offer a slightly easier pad change...on the rare occasion that you actually need to change the rear pads. Personally, for $1500+ that's not a very attractive proposition to me as an enthusiast, and I'm guessing the same holds true for most others.

People will, and do, slap all types of rear brake setups on these cars, but that doesn't mean they're actually improving anything other than looks. In many cases performance is actually hurt more than it is improved.
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Old 08-28-2016, 06:10 PM   #30
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I think one advantage of Brembos is, that you can run them all the time everywhere. No problems with salt and dust. I cannot recall a BBK for this car that can be run like this.
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Old 08-30-2016, 10:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prj3ctm4yh3m View Post
Sliding calipers suck.
Mismatched calipers suck.
Over pistoned rears suck.

I want two piston rears and im sure alot of others do too.

Guess ill piece it together mahself.
I'm running rebuilt 06/07 WRX 2 piston rear calipers with an Essex sprint front. Works very well, not too expensive and uses stock rotor. Quick pad changes too.
Brake bias is the same as stock.

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Old 08-30-2016, 11:49 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
I'm running rebuilt 06/07 WRX 2 piston rear calipers with an Essex sprint front. Works very well, not too expensive and uses stock rotor. Quick pad changes too.
Brake bias is the same as stock.

Sent from my Z812 using Tapatalk

thanks!
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Old 08-30-2016, 11:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM4E View Post
I think one advantage of Brembos is, that you can run them all the time everywhere. No problems with salt and dust. I cannot recall a BBK for this car that can be run like this.
This is because street/OEM Brembo calipers use dust boots which are known to melt on track. I'll be running my RR Racing BBK this winter here in wonderful Canada and I'll be reporting on how my pistons look when the season ends.
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Old 08-31-2016, 03:36 PM   #34
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This is because street/OEM Brembo calipers use dust boots which are known to melt on track. I'll be running my RR Racing BBK this winter here in wonderful Canada and I'll be reporting on how my pistons look when the season ends.
This and 2-piece rotors, where the salt is damaging the joints.
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Old 09-02-2016, 05:28 PM   #35
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Here are some prices.

Front:


Rear:


Not listed are the brake lines which have a different part number and different "high flow" description in the name but same price as the original stock brake lines.
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:03 AM   #36
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How thick are the pads on the OEM Brembos pads? I know AP's are around 20mm
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:18 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynxis View Post
This is because street/OEM Brembo calipers use dust boots which are known to melt on track. I'll be running my RR Racing BBK this winter here in wonderful Canada and I'll be reporting on how my pistons look when the season ends.
Keep me posted, that's the biggest reason I don't have a BBK on my car yet I'm too busy/lazy to swap calipers/rotors/etc winter/summer, wheels/tires and pads is enough for me .
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Old 10-10-2016, 07:36 AM   #38
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I think one advantage of Brembos is, that you can run them all the time everywhere. No problems with salt and dust. I cannot recall a BBK for this car that can be run like this.

Sure there are. I have the Cosworth AP racing kit with 356x32mm disc. The CP7040 is a caliper designed for all year round road use but derived from a race caliper. It has all the nice features such as ant rattle shims, dust boots, aluminium pistons ect...

The massive disc means you can run and mild pad without fade at the track and you wont melt the dust boots as temps are quite low.

Tradeoff is it heavy and requires wide 18" wheels to clear.
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Old 10-10-2016, 11:00 AM   #39
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Sure there are. I have the Cosworth AP racing kit with 356x32mm disc. The CP7040 is a caliper designed for all year round road use but derived from a race caliper. It has all the nice features such as ant rattle shims, dust boots, aluminium pistons ect...

The massive disc means you can run and mild pad without fade at the track and you wont melt the dust boots as temps are quite low.

Tradeoff is it heavy and requires wide 18" wheels to clear.
Good good. And do you have 2-piece rotors? They don't like salt much, do you have any feedback on that?

Generally I agree, for street the milder pads the better, and running pads that needs heat to work on street is totally wrong in my opinion.

But when I look at your kit's price, I think that the Brembo upgrade will be still good for more performance oriented guys but not people who live on track of course. I imagine adding a cooling, changing fluid and pads a they should be quite capable for a good price in the OEM package
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Old 10-11-2016, 05:30 AM   #40
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Good good. And do you have 2-piece rotors? They don't like salt much, do you have any feedback on that?

Generally I agree, for street the milder pads the better, and running pads that needs heat to work on street is totally wrong in my opinion.

But when I look at your kit's price, I think that the Brembo upgrade will be still good for more performance oriented guys but not people who live on track of course. I imagine adding a cooling, changing fluid and pads a they should be quite capable for a good price in the OEM package
Yes they are a bolted rotor. Aluminium bell and AP racing bolt which are very corrosion resistant. Had a friend with a similar AP kit on his Impreza STI for 8 years and the bolt were still solid and came right off to replace the disc. This is in the UK where they use salt on the roads in the winter.

I agree the brembo is more affordable, especial used. I have a buddy who I do some trackdays with. He has the full brembo and a harrop supercharger. He needs to run more aggressive pads than I do otherwise he gets fade. ALso the Iron Brembo caliper are heavy and absorb and store more heat than aluminium so he uses titanium shims.

Its understandable as its a 325x30mm disc vs the 356x32mm AP disc. Time will tell if he burns the paint, but he went for black which makes it less noticeable.

Mine are bright yellow which shows any sign of burning by going a nice shade of brown.

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Old 10-11-2016, 10:03 AM   #41
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Great setup you have. Maybe you convince me, lets wait for some PP reviews
I had no idea that BBK are also painted, I thought in general they are just andoized and thus they don't survive winter. Here we also have salt. Good to hear that your joints are fine!

EDIT: info on joints corrosion from Essex:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=90

Last edited by JDM4E; 10-11-2016 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 10-13-2016, 03:58 AM   #42
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Great setup you have. Maybe you convince me, lets wait for some PP reviews
I had no idea that BBK are also painted, I thought in general they are just andoized and thus they don't survive winter. Here we also have salt. Good to hear that your joints are fine!

EDIT: info on joints corrosion from Essex:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=90
AP racing are just up the road from me. I've had lengthy conversations with their application engineer and a kit designer. Like I said the Imprezza AP formula kit after 8 years of winter use in the UK was fantastic. The bell had lots of stone chips but was not sevearly corroded at all. They come with a pretty thick anodised coating on them.

Will PM you so more info.
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