BRZ vs old Celica

[AnalogMan]

It's astonishing that continued engineering development allows an entry-level sports car today (BRZ) to have similar performance to a mega-buck super-car of the 1990's (Ferrari 348; see other thread), while also being a lot cheaper to buy and maintain and more reliable to boot.

Here's another interesting comparison - the 'value' of a BRZ vs. an old Japanese 'sporty' car, in this case a seemingly mint 1976 Toyota Celica:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-toyota-celica-4/

I love old cars, both for the nostalgia factor of their being the cars I drove back in the 70's and 80's, the styling, and the simplicity. I always go back and forth between wanting an older car, and then getting stuck on the (to me) better value of a contemporary car like the BRZ (to say nothing of the practicality).

This Celica is a great example. Of course it's a very different car from the BRZ, almost half a century older, but represents the quintessential affordable Japanese sporty coupe of the 1970's. This one looks to be in great condition, but watch the pricing. It's on Bring-a-Trailer which means people with more money than common sense will skyrocket the bidding much higher than if it was sold anywhere else. One day in and it's already priced at what a nice used BRZ would sell for. I wouldn't be surprised it it ultimately hammers for around the price of a new BRZ (if not more).

I'd love to have a pristine 1976 Celica. Just because they're unusual, cool, and iconic in their own way. I lusted after them in the 70's, but being a college student back then, couldn't afford one.

But is it worth about what a new BRZ costs?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

It's astonishing that continued engineering development allows an entry-level sports car today (BRZ) to have similar performance to a mega-buck super-car of the 1990's (Ferrari 348; see other thread), while also being a lot cheaper to buy and maintain and more reliable to boot.

Here's another interesting comparison - the 'value' of a BRZ vs. an old Japanese 'sporty' car, in this case a seemingly mint 1976 Toyota Celica:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-toyota-celica-4/

I love old cars, both for the nostalgia factor of their being the cars I drove back in the 70's and 80's, the styling, and the simplicity. I always go back and forth between wanting an older car, and then getting stuck on the (to me) better value of a contemporary car like the BRZ (to say nothing of the practicality).

This Celica is a great example. Of course it's a very different car from the BRZ, almost half a century older, but represents the quintessential affordable Japanese sporty coupe of the 1970's. This one looks to be in great condition, but watch the pricing. It's on Bring-a-Trailer which means people with more money than common sense will skyrocket the bidding much higher than if it was sold anywhere else. One day in and it's already priced at what a nice used BRZ would sell for. I wouldn't be surprised it it ultimately hammers for around the price of a new BRZ (if not more).

I'd love to have a pristine 1976 Celica. Just because they're unusual, cool, and iconic in their own way. I lusted after them in the 70's, but being a college student back then, couldn't afford one.

But is it worth about what a new BRZ costs?

You really nailed why these cars go for so much. Same with pretty much any of the higher valued "classic" car models. They are the ones people lusted after but could not afford in their youth but now they have money to burn and there just are not many of the cars left so up the price tag goes.

[NWFRS]

These were what got me into Japanese cars.

I already had a ‘71 Firebird Esprit that I was working on, bought from an uncle when I was sixteen. I worked all summer at a sleazy little auto shop in exchange for help at fixing it up. The Firebird was uncomfortable to drive and difficult to see out of. Then in my senior year of high school I got a real factory job after school hours. I saved my pennies and bought a ‘77 Celica ST coupe for $1k to get me around while I kept working on the Firebird. It *showed* 89k miles at the time I bought it.

Of course I fell in love with the Celica and sold the Firebird.

Then I picked up a factory-fresh ‘74 Celica GT coupe for $2500, followed by a ‘71 ST coupe for $500, and a ‘77 Liftback for $750. They all ran just fine. The engine and gearbox came out of the Liftback, built up by some friends who raced Celicas at the local super oval, and dropped into the ‘74 GT coupe. The two early coupes had 18rc engines in them to start with. The ‘71 ST coupe had factory air conditioning. They were all much more comfortable and fun to drive than the Firebird had been. The Celicas had reclining bucket seats and fun gearboxes. This was all in about 2000-2006. I was a renter and working full-time in manufacturing. Eventually I sold the cars and moved across the state. I always figured I’d snag another early coupe eventually, but then prices went out of control. I’m married and mortgaged now, and my wife doesn’t care much for old cars. I may have to give up the dream at this point. I don’t even remember the last time I saw a clean ‘71-‘74 coupe come up for sale.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You really nailed why these cars go for so much. .

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking as well. I know there are several cars I wouldn't mind owning from "my past" if I could find examples where they were in at least "good used" condition, and I would pay a (small) premium for one in excellent or restored condition.

While on BAT I can't help but look. This is probably the best looking Model A I've ever seen. If I had a garage space to park it I would be tempted to bid (and well, it is in Greece, so there is the shipping cost).

Just absolutely beautiful, and perfect for a Spring or Fall Sunday Drive, even if it is from before my time.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking as well. I know there are several cars I wouldn't mind owning from "my past" if I could find examples where they were in at least "good used" condition, and I would pay a (small) premium for one in excellent or restored condition.

While on BAT I can't help but look. This is probably the best looking Model A I've ever seen. If I had a garage space to park it I would be tempted to bid (and well, it is in Greece, so there is the shipping cost).

Just absolutely beautiful, and perfect for a Spring or Fall Sunday Drive, even if it is from before my time.

The current economy is certainly reflected in the prices of some of those cars. I know that the auctions have not ended but a 55 T-Bird for $22K with only 4 hours of bid time left? Just a few years ago you would have paid more than that for a gutted shell.

As we get older though the value on many of those will start to drop off anyway since the people that coveted them will all be dead and the younger crowd will want the "newer" stuff that was big when they couldn't afford it.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

You really nailed why these cars go for so much. Same with pretty much any of the higher valued "classic" car models. They are the ones people lusted after but could not afford in their youth but now they have money to burn and there just are not many of the cars left so up the price tag goes.

Exactly. What price for nostalgia?

It depends on the depth of the pockets. For some billionaire hedge fund manager, venture capitalist, or Silicon Valley tech bro, dropping $50,000 on a nostalgic old Japanese car is just credit card money. It would probably be one of the cheaper cars in a double-digit collection.

For me, as much as the nostalgia force runs strong in me, when the price of an old car starts approaching around half of what a new equivalent costs, I lose interest. But then, the space I have for a car 'collection', and my bank account, are a lot slimmer than whoever will end up buying this car.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

Exactly. What price for nostalgia?

It depends on the depth of the pockets. For some billionaire hedge fund manager, venture capitalist, or Silicon Valley tech bro, dropping $50,000 on a nostalgic old Japanese car is just credit card money. It would probably be one of the cheaper cars in a double-digit collection.

For me, as much as the nostalgia force runs strong in me, when the price of an old car starts approaching around half of what a new equivalent costs, I lose interest. But then, the space I have for a car 'collection', and my bank account, are a lot slimmer than whoever will end up buying this car.

People will pay whatever they want if they have the money. The rich are really rich.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndica...-down.amp.html

For me, nostalgia also comes with electrical problems, engine problems, really old tech interfaces, etc. At 16 in 98’ my first car was a 61 Valiant and my first obsession with cars was classics, so I appreciate old cars, but I only have the storage for one car at the moment and my motorcycle, so I haven’t the funds or space for nostalgia, but like you, I wouldn’t pay more than $10k-15k for nostalgia. At that price, you don’t get much nostalgia. My first purchase and third purchase in my early to mid twenties were MKIV Supras. I’m almost 40. Maybe at 60 I’ll get nostalgic about a mid 90’s sports car, but I don’t have any interest in owning a Supra or any other 90’s car again.

I’ve considered even getting a used 911 or possibly getting a used 992 in 10-15 years, but even then, who knows how things will progress or how my tastes might change, or really, how dated the car might be. Those 2000’s 996 and 997 interiors have aged horribly. The older cars like the 993 or 964 have aged better. I think in the end I like the idea of something nostalgic less than I understand the reality of owning an older car. If space and money was plentiful then I could rationalize nostalgia.

[blackhawkdown]

MKIV Supra sold for over $130,000. Now that is nostalgia.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

People will pay whatever they want if they have the money. The rich are really rich.

Like most things in life, it comes down to money. What's an unimaginable fortune to one person, is mere credit card pocket money to another. The '1%' have done well in the pandemic, and thanks to a soaring stock market and favorable tax treatment under the previous administration, now have more money than some people literally know what to do with. How else to explain someone paying $69 million - sixty nine million dollars - for a jpeg file:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...on/4720108001/

Calling it a 'NFT' doesn't make it sound like any better of a deal. This is crazy money being thrown around by obscenely wealthy people.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

For me, nostalgia also comes with electrical problems, engine problems, really old tech interfaces, etc. At 16 in 98’ my first car was a 61 Valiant and my first obsession with cars was classics, so I appreciate old cars, but I only have the storage for one car at the moment and my motorcycle, so I haven’t the funds or space for nostalgia, but like you, I wouldn’t pay more than $10k-15k for nostalgia. At that price, you don’t get much nostalgia.

Again thanks to a soaring stock market and the upper 1% not knowing what to do with their money, the prices being paid for so many things are beyond bubble valuations. It was only a few years ago that $10-$15k would buy any one of many reasonably nice Cars & Coffee grade fun older cars. Now check out what some mildly interesting Japanese cars have sold for recently (better be sitting down for this, and pour a tall cold one while you're at it) -

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-honda-civic-27/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-honda-civic-30/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-honda-crx-8/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-datsun-240z-124/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-datsun-240z-65/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-toyota-celica-2/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1990-nissan-240sx-4/

The 1976 Celica fastback originally posted is already up to $26,000, with 5 days left in the auction. I bet it goes for over $40,000. Admittedly these are BaT prices which means it's essentially an on-line version of Barrett-Jackson for the rich and disgusting, but if these valuations don't scream bubble, I don't know what does.

There is probably a wide range of financial means represented on this forum, but I don't imagine that many of the people here routinely add to their collections with BaT purchases. I would also guess not that many people who are shopping for a BRZ/86, used or new, are also buying a $50,000 20 year old Honda Civic.

But it would be theoretically possible to cross-shop cars in a similar price range, even if they're very different propositions. I've often daydreamed about buying a pristine Japanese car from the 1970's and using it as a daily driver, primarily for the nostalgia of it. But like you, when the reality hits about finding parts, the dismal performance compared to modern cars, relatively poor safety, and the fact that its value would plummet with mileage added and condition less than pristine, I'm not pulling my wallet out.

But damn, I should have stocked up on clean Celicas, Civics, or 240Z's a few years ago when nice ones were selling for 1/10th of what they're going for now...

[alphasaur]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

It's astonishing that continued engineering development allows an entry-level sports car today (BRZ) to have similar performance to a mega-buck super-car of the 1990's (Ferrari 348; see other thread), while also being a lot cheaper to buy and maintain and more reliable to boot.

Here's another interesting comparison - the 'value' of a BRZ vs. an old Japanese 'sporty' car, in this case a seemingly mint 1976 Toyota Celica:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1976-toyota-celica-4/

I love old cars, both for the nostalgia factor of their being the cars I drove back in the 70's and 80's, the styling, and the simplicity. I always go back and forth between wanting an older car, and then getting stuck on the (to me) better value of a contemporary car like the BRZ (to say nothing of the practicality).

This Celica is a great example. Of course it's a very different car from the BRZ, almost half a century older, but represents the quintessential affordable Japanese sporty coupe of the 1970's. This one looks to be in great condition, but watch the pricing. It's on Bring-a-Trailer which means people with more money than common sense will skyrocket the bidding much higher than if it was sold anywhere else. One day in and it's already priced at what a nice used BRZ would sell for. I wouldn't be surprised it it ultimately hammers for around the price of a new BRZ (if not more).

I'd love to have a pristine 1976 Celica. Just because they're unusual, cool, and iconic in their own way. I lusted after them in the 70's, but being a college student back then, couldn't afford one.

But is it worth about what a new BRZ costs?

Link to ferrari thread? can't find

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

Like most things in life, it comes down to money. What's an unimaginable fortune to one person, is mere credit card pocket money to another. The '1%' have done well in the pandemic, and thanks to a soaring stock market and favorable tax treatment under the previous administration, now have more money than some people literally know what to do with. How else to explain someone paying $69 million - sixty nine million dollars - for a jpeg file:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...on/4720108001/

Calling it a 'NFT' doesn't make it sound like any better of a deal. This is crazy money being thrown around by obscenely wealthy people.

I think these are more like investment vehicles like buying a collectible car that could appreciate or could be just a different place to store money than a bank.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by alphasaur

Link to ferrari thread? can't find

Here you go:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143657

It's a great read and fascinating to think about, that an entry-level sports car today (the BRZ) has similar performance to a mega-buck super-car of the 1990's (Ferrari 348). Plus is also much more reliable to boot.

Just amazing how far engineering development has come.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I think these are more like investment vehicles like buying a collectible car that could appreciate or could be just a different place to store money than a bank.

Thanks! I guess I'm showing my age and could probably be accused of being 'out of touch', but I have a hard time seeing the intrinsic value in a GIF or JPG file.

I understand that something doesn't need to be 'tangible' in the sense that you can physically touch, feel, and hold it for it to have value (though I'm more comfortable with those things). The whole stock market is essentially intangible. Actual share certificates haven't been used for a long time, and while stock equity technically means owning a piece of a company, it's all incorporeal and abstract. The global stock market is worth about $95 trillion, and it's all just computer files.

But at least there's something proprietary and titled to electronic ownership of a stock. It's like a bank account. Most people don't go in and withdraw a bag full of $10's and $20's (unless they're robbing the place). Like the title to a house, it's something fungible that can't (easily) be stolen or faked, and is a mark of something tangible.

But a NFT? Something that anyone can view, copy, reproduce, and 'enjoy'? I get it that there might be a crypto blockchain documenting 'ownership', but still, what the hell is a GIF or a jpeg worth if it's freely distributable and disseminated to the world? I could understand paying a few bucks just for giggles, but tens of thousands? Tens of millions, like the $69 million for a jpeg Beeple file???

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/11/a...es-beeple.html

On one end of the spectrum, fans will croon that this is a brave new economic world and the future of the 'attention economy'. I just think it's a scam, yet another bubble being inflated by speculators who profit doing what they do best: hype and pump and dump.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/o...sultPosition=4

[DarkSideFRS]

i'd buy a GT-four RC or CS any day over the shitty BRZ