2022 Toyota 86 (Click-bait articles)

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The CTR was faster than the Golf R and Focus RS. AWD is great, but only if you have reached the limits of traction because of the surface/tires or because of the horsepower/tires, but even then, that isn't the case necessarily, which is why we don't see AWD drag cars being the fastest cars at the drag strip, or why there are many records set with RWD cars, and AWD is destroying everything. In fact, in the top 10 Nurburgring times, 6 out of 10 are RWD.

I suppose AWD is like automatic transmissions; they just make it easier to go fast for novice people. The obvious disadvantages are the weight penalty, the drivetrain losses and packaging.

I don't really want an AWD or RWD CTR. I would be down for a mid engine Honda with the CTR or Accord 2.0T powertrain, which wouldn't be too hard to design, or I would be down for a RWD longitudinal setup like the S2000 with the CTR motor.

AWD is not a magic bullet that allows a car to perform miracles, but it can be a big plus if set up properly. And with any type of adverse conditions like rain or snow, it’s very important. For track driving and even sometimes on the street. I know I know people will say “All you need is good tires!” And I know that is true no matter what wheels are being driven.
I think there are really awesome cars in each configuration, but there are so many other factors to make a car fun or perform better. Like what Honda was able to do with the FWD Civic TypeR, it shouldn’t be able to hang with more powerful cars with AWD, but it does. To be fair, depending on the track the Golf R and Focus RS will be faster.


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[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by JesseG

AWD is not a magic bullet that allows a car to perform miracles, but it can be a big plus if set up properly. And with any type of adverse conditions like rain or snow, it’s very important. For track driving and even sometimes on the street. I know I know people will say “All you need is good tires!” And I know that is true no matter what wheels are being driven.
I think there are really awesome cars in each configuration, but there are so many other factors to make a car fun or perform better. Like what Honda was able to do with the FWD Civic TypeR, it shouldn’t be able to hang with more powerful cars with AWD, but it does. To be fair, depending on the track the Golf R and Focus RS will be faster.


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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...omparison/amp/

I think if you look at all the metrics, the CTR outperformed all these competitors in most ways. If it can get to 100 the fastest, go fastest around corners and stop in the shortest distance then the only metric left is getting on the power sooner, but in their test, the CTR had the fastest time. The Focus RS has an extra 45hp and 55tq, but it also has to carry an extra 334lbs plus extra drivetrain losses. If the AWD sacrifices 10% more drivetrain loss over the CTR because of AWD then the Focus lost 35 hp and tq, which puts it closer to the CTR, yet the Focus is heavier.

[TheDonEffect]

A couple of things here. I don't put alot of stock into ring times. The factory team was sent with the car, with a driver who knows the car well, and then they go to set the best lap time they possibly can.

I say this because the benefit about AWD in a practical sense, is that most of us can get better lap times using AWD, vs. RWD and FWD. So yes, the Type R can accelerate faster, go around corners faster, etc, but that's alot of work on those front tires. Having AWD, especially a system similar to the Focus RS or GTR, gives the car more control over the output and can make a zero look like a hero.

Yes, AWD is heavier, and more drivetrain loss, but for 90% of drivers out there, they will put up better times in AWD than FWD or RWD for that matter. Also, Honda did a great job in controlling the power it has stock, but what happens when you start turning the power up? Again, AWD has its advantages.

The Type R is a marvel though, and I respect it, and it's also a much newer chassis that had benchmark targets the AWD competition didn't have, it will be interesting what happens when the new STI drops.

For me, I prefer RWD, and I'm not some great driver or whatever, but my brain seems to just understand how to make adjustments (oftentimes not in time, lol) with rwd better than FWD which to over simplify is get the car into the right corner speed and hold on. I feel like there's more opportunity for mid corner corrections and improvising than FWD. AWD in that respect is sorta similar. Again, this way over simplifying, I know that FWD isn't nearly as simple as I just made it out to be, I'm just trying to formulate a succinct point.

That's the thing about magazine racing, it just looks at the highest possible lap time and not consistent lap times, without alot of controls. But if we must, then on Motortrend's hot laps done on the same track, with the same driver, without factory support on hand (IIRC), the Type R is not as dominant.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

Still very impressive.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

AWD is great, but only if you have reached the limits of traction because of the surface/tires or because of the horsepower/tires, but even then, that isn't the case necessarily, which is why we don't see AWD drag cars being the fastest cars at the drag strip, or why there are many records set with RWD cars, and AWD is destroying everything. In fact, in the top 10 Nurburgring times, 6 out of 10 are RWD.

I suppose AWD is like automatic transmissions; they just make it easier to go fast for novice people. The obvious disadvantages are the weight penalty, the drivetrain losses and packaging.

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect

A couple of things here. I don't put alot of stock into ring times. The factory team was sent with the car, with a driver who knows the car well, and then they go to set the best lap time they possibly can.

Yes, AWD is heavier, and more drivetrain loss, but for 90% of drivers out there, they will put up better times in AWD than FWD or RWD for that matter. Also, Honda did a great job in controlling the power it has stock, but what happens when you start turning the power up? Again, AWD has its advantages.

That's the thing about magazine racing, it just looks at the highest possible lap time and not consistent lap times, without alot of controls. But if we must, then on Motortrend's hot laps done on the same track, with the same driver, without factory support on hand (IIRC), the Type R is not as dominant.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

Still very impressive.

You kind of said the same thing I already said, but I think you missed the part where many of the top Nurburgring times have RWD cars. We have cars like the Porsche GT2 RS that is only RWD, even though the standard Turbo is AWD. That seems counter intuitive if the GT2 RS has a ton more power.

AWD really only has an advantage where traction is limited, but in every other situation it is a disadvantage, and I agree, that for the street, when traction is limited, and a novice is behind the wheel, and 0-60 matters because someone needs to beat the soccer mom off the line, then AWD matters.

In that test, the CTR and Focus RS had the same time and beat the Golf R and STI (not the overpriced RA), so again, the Focus couldn't beat a car with 45 less horsepower and 55 less torque plus two extra drive wheels and an intelligent AWD system. I don't know of a better illustration to show how much weight matters.

Looks fast, 11:47 at 127mph:

[TheDonEffect]

IIRC there was something said about it being harder to repeat the lap times and what not. It's also a newer platform so I wouldn't put too much stock into it. Still very impressive, just not my cup of tea.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...omparison/amp/

I think if you look at all the metrics, the CTR outperformed all these competitors in most ways. If it can get to 100 the fastest, go fastest around corners and stop in the shortest distance then the only metric left is getting on the power sooner, but in their test, the CTR had the fastest time. The Focus RS has an extra 45hp and 55tq, but it also has to carry an extra 334lbs plus extra drivetrain losses. If the AWD sacrifices 10% more drivetrain loss over the CTR because of AWD then the Focus lost 35 hp and tq, which puts it closer to the CTR, yet the Focus is heavier.

I agree the CTR is incredible, not many FWD cars have ever been able to accomplish what it has. And it’s a good daily driver. The Golf R is probably the “best” daily driver, and the Focus RS and STI falling somewhere outside of that on the opposite side. And performance wise they all sort of reflect that. I would be surprised if a CTR could consistently outpace the Focus RS or STI. Maybe in a hot lap scenario.
AWD can be a blast, especially a setup like the STI has. It adds weight of course, but you gain traction. So if you combine that with a powerful engine, voila!
All that being said I would probably choose the STI with the CTR being a very close second. Since I’m a Subaru homer.


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[WolfpackS2k]

When I look at anything with the Type R badge I think track use, and if I were to spend that much on a performance car it would almost certainly be my track car (Cayman is my current track car). The CTR is a crappy track car. It destroys its front tires and overheats easily. AWD would only make the overheating a bigger issue, but would help A TON with tire wear.

Hard pass.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

When I look at anything with the Type R badge I think track use, and if I were to spend that much on a performance car it would almost certainly be my track car (Cayman is my current track car). The CTR is a crappy track car. It destroys its front tires and overheats easily. AWD would only make the overheating a bigger issue, but would help A TON with tire wear.

Hard pass.

It’s probably a little unfair to compare the CTR with cars like the Focus RS and STI, but it doesn’t have anything else to go up against. And the Focus RS doesn’t even exist any more. Overheating is an issue with pretty much any car on the track, they weren’t designed for hard track use. Some are worse than others though.


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[Lantanafrs2]

I predict the new car will have very slightly improved performance numbers but will be more drivable in terms of power delivery. Might even be a touch slower on the spec sheet but more enjoyable to the average driver

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by JesseG

Overheating is an issue with pretty much any car on the track,

???
I've tracked a buncha modded and non-modded cars over the past 25 years, including a 550hp LS3 FD and a 255rwhp 3.1 240Z (with stock 260z rad) and overheating has almost never been an issue. Only once really, '11 2.9 Cayman at Thompson Motor Speedway at ~100F, without the recommended 3rd radiator. Would start to overheat after about 5 laps, manageable by backing off a bit (less than a second), no problem to run 3-lap time trial.
Other than that, never had overheating issues.

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

When I look at anything with the Type R badge I think track use, and if I were to spend that much on a performance car it would almost certainly be my track car (Cayman is my current track car). The CTR is a crappy track car. It destroys its front tires and overheats easily. AWD would only make the overheating a bigger issue, but would help A TON with tire wear.

Hard pass.

From what I've read which may still be an issue or might never get resolved, the Type R is not supposed to have overheating issues. Honda is "trying to determine the problem" as they had done extensive testing on track and never ran into overheating issues. So it sounds like some cars are experiencing this due to the failure of some part or a kink of a hose in intense conditions. Granted, this is still a problem and should not be happening with such a car. Just clarifying that they did not release this car with crappy heat soak in mind.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by JesseG

It’s probably a little unfair to compare the CTR with cars like the Focus RS and STI, but it doesn’t have anything else to go up against. And the Focus RS doesn’t even exist any more. Overheating is an issue with pretty much any car on the track, they weren’t designed for hard track use. Some are worse than others though.

The car's name is literally Type Race. And to my knowledge no previous Type R's have ever had overheating issues on track.

Originally Posted by ZDan

???
I've tracked a buncha modded and non-modded cars over the past 25 years, including a 550hp LS3 FD and a 255rwhp 3.1 240Z (with stock 260z rad) and overheating has almost never been an issue. Only once really, '11 2.9 Cayman at Thompson Motor Speedway at ~100F, without the recommended 3rd radiator. Would start to overheat after about 5 laps, manageable by backing off a bit (less than a second), no problem to run 3-lap time trial.
Other than that, never had overheating issues.

Ditto here. My GS-R never had cooling issues on track (even with 250k+ miles). S2000 never had issues. Supercharged BRZ didn't (though granted the only event I had it at was 40-50°F weather). And my Cayman S has never had so much as a hiccup, even at one particularly toasty Savannah track event last year where the daytime ambient air temp was over 100°F all weekend.

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

From what I've read which may still be an issue or might never get resolved, the Type R is not supposed to have overheating issues. Honda is "trying to determine the problem" as they had done extensive testing on track and never ran into overheating issues. So it sounds like some cars are experiencing this due to the failure of some part or a kink of a hose in intense conditions. Granted, this is still a problem and should not be happening with such a car. Just clarifying that they did not release this car with crappy heat soak in mind.

Sounds like maybe more of those fake grille openings should be real ones

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by ZDan

???
I've tracked a buncha modded and non-modded cars over the past 25 years, including a 550hp LS3 FD and a 255rwhp 3.1 240Z (with stock 260z rad) and overheating has almost never been an issue. Only once really, '11 2.9 Cayman at Thompson Motor Speedway at ~100F, without the recommended 3rd radiator. Would start to overheat after about 5 laps, manageable by backing off a bit (less than a second), no problem to run 3-lap time trial.
Other than that, never had overheating issues.

I haven’t spent much time on the track so it’s always good to hear first hand experience. I’ve done some AutoX but that is all done at much slower speeds. I had issues with brake fade on my GTI, but a pad upgrade mostly fixed that. And being FWD I noticed front tire grip would get worse as I drove. I took my WRX on many spirited drives, usually with other WRX owners. I remember one guy almost caught his brakes on fire. I immediately got better pads for my car. And I installed the intercooler water spray. EJ20’s tend to get hot because the top mount intercooler gets heat soaked quickly.
Most cars will show weaknesses when you push them. Something like the Cayman I would expect to do better than a CTR after multiple laps.


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[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

From what I've read which may still be an issue or might never get resolved, the Type R is not supposed to have overheating issues. Honda is "trying to determine the problem" as they had done extensive testing on track and never ran into overheating issues. So it sounds like some cars are experiencing this due to the failure of some part or a kink of a hose in intense conditions. Granted, this is still a problem and should not be happening with such a car. Just clarifying that they did not release this car with crappy heat soak in mind.

Hopefully they can get it sorted out and set up a TSB. I still think it’s a bada** car, and getting over 300HP from a relatively small 2 liter engine is impressive. Any time you are trying to push the envelope of performance, it’s inevitable some issues will reveal themselves. I would buy one without much concern about overheating. You’re right, Honda did extensive testing with this car, and wouldn’t have released it with overheating issues. Driving it within reason of course, it’s not a true race car.


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