Comparing the Golf GTI and a BRZ/FRS

[jamison884]

I'm looking for opinions, because I continue to see so much praise for the twins, calling them the best enthusiast cars within that price range (high $20's). For a lightweight RWD coupe, it doesn't have much competition at that price, but when you expand your options a bit to other types of cars, I feel it struggles...a lot.

I currently own two cars, both are stock and have 6MT transmissions; I'm about to sell my Scion FRS. The one and only time I tried to track the FRS, three laps in the engine died (rod knock, blown up connecting rod, warranty denied and Toyota claims the oil never made it to the bearing). Despite Toyota LITERALLY marketing the Toyota 86 as "track proven," I had to spend about $7k to buy a used engine and have it installed.

During those three very enjoyable laps, I felt the FRS was just as quick (on a relatively short and twisty road course) as the multiple times I tracked by BMW 335i M-Sport. The FRS is just a really nice lightweight and agile car that carries the speed better than a heavy understeering BMW. THe FRS is clearly a car that thrives on using momentum.

While the FRS was sitting dead, I went ahead and sold my really cheap commuter (2007 Honda Civic) and test drove a new Miata first, which was great, and then a Golf GTI just to see if everything I heard about them was true. In my opinion, the GTI was a better value and more fun than the Miata, and I proceeded to test drive the Miata a second time just to verify this.

1. I bought the 2013 Scion FRS used at ~25k miles around two years ago for $17k (from a dealership, as it was the best option available at the time versus private sellers).

2. I bought the 2017 Golf GTI SE new for $26k (after all fees/registration/tax/4th year of prepaid maintenance/wheel and tire insurance), which was a great deal in my opinion, taking advantage of the 2018 models arriving. For comparison, my exact configuration on the VW site for the 2018 model is $32,120, and that doesn't include all of the fees, tax, the 4th year of maintenance, and tire/wheel insurance.

Both are great vehicles for enthusiasts. and I can't fault anyone for owning either or these, or the Miata I test drove.

But this is where it gets confusing to me. Based purely on my own experiences, the GTI has so much more going for it. It's orders of magnitude more refined when it comes to comfort, build materials, and technology, has amazing balance and turn-in (virtually no understeer), and the brakes are stronger (the SE uses Golf R brakes if I recall correctly), Then the clutch is smoother, the gear shifts are much smoother and less clunky, it only weighs about 250 pounds more than an FRS, and it's simply faster with a bit more HP and a ton more torque. Then I can also fit four full-sized adults comfortably and have plenty of storage.

Am I missing something here? Besides wishing the GTI was RWD for multiple reasons, it beats the FRS in every other category (for my dollar). It's obviously not a direct comparison due to which wheels are being driven, but at a high level evaluation of simply selecting a "fun car," the GTI wins it for me.

Take everything the GTI already is, and send the power to the rear wheels, and I'd buy the shit out of that car tomorrow.

[DarkSunrise]

The GTI is a great car, no doubt about that. My wife and I still have a prior-gen GTI (2011) and are holding onto it as a family car despite it being small because its a solid mix of fun, refinement and practicality. It's like a hot hatch version of a small German sedan.

That said, there's just no way it can compete with the FR-S in terms of pure driving experience.The FR-S has much better feedback/feel from the road, the seating position is low and perfect, the steering rack is much quicker, the chassis balance is more neutral and adjustable, it's got RWD and a LSD, engine keeps pulling to 7400 rpm redline, etc. Everything else the GTI wins (practicality, tech, interior, comfort) but just in terms of driving, it's no comparison. I've tracked both cars extensively and the FR-S is so much more fun, at least in my opinion. Both are great cars, just depends what you're looking for.

[wbradley]

I had a brand new GTI once. Paid $13K on the road with the optional crank sunroof. Great car for the time except if driven like I do my FR-S it would probably end up on its back (flipped).

My buddy in the same year bought a new Corolla GTS. I drove it a couple of times at his insistence and holy shit! WAY more fun car to drive at the time. It was probably under $14K

I digress lol


In the spirit of playfulness these twins are great cars in anupdated way and without the back seat. The GTI is in every aspect more practical and the entrance/exit is easier as well as the hatch, back seat, good interior for its class etc. Now compare say to a 2016 fully equipped FR-S or 86.

You would probably really enjoy an IS, although it might not make sense to you financially. I've never bought a heavily discounted new car before but it's supply/demand I guess.

Imagine a compact 4 door twin! Probably not since the IS fits the slot.

[00NissanNinja]

I have both and I like them both. The GTI is great because its practical and refined, yet fast and handles pretty well with the performance pack. But the BRZ will out handle it all day. Whenever I hop in the BRZ its more about having a more raw and focused driving experience, although that is not to say the GTI can't give the same feeling. You can tell the moment you sit in the BRZ its about driving and not much else. The GTI lacks a bit of the sharpness of the BRZ but makes up for it in the power and refinement.

[evoto86]

i bought my 86 in Australia as the base model that absolute barebones only japan offer an even more barebones model. What I’m getting at is the 86 is a drivers car not many people buy it to enjoy the refinement. They are a race car imo they just need to be modified correctly. Buy a GTI if you want a nice commute to work in comfort, a car the GF or Wife won’t complain about, drive your mates around etc etc. but if you just want a car to chuck out sideways, rev to 7800RPM, carve up corners you can’t beat it in this price range I never driven a car that just rotates like the 86 does in tight corners. It’s a shame your car suffered an engine failure but take into account yours is an outlier their are thousands that are being beat up on the track and going strong.

[jamison884]

Fair enough gents. I think I'm too spooked about the dead engine in the FRS, and as a result, I've never really pushed the FRS performance wise, except for a few donuts.

I guess the GTI just connected with me, and I love driving it, so all is well.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by jamison884

except for a few donuts.

I picture billowing smoke and sound of motor violently bouncing off rev limiter. Hmmmm.

[acro]

The GTI is wonderfull comfy a nice family car that is relatively quick and handles well but when u really push hard it just doesnt reward you as well and begins to fall apart at the limit IMO.

But the FRS is a different beast. It begs to be driven hard and rewards the driver who dooes so but still feels so good at normal sane speeds. In fact, the harder you drive the more rewarding it is. It is a brilliant track car a great drivers car.

So it depends on what you want really. If you have any intention of taking this car to the track keep the FRS. If you want to be engaged even driving at normal speeds get the FRS

If u want a comfy ride that can sometimes be quick and playful on the road and carry the family get the GTI

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by jamison884

Take everything the GTI already is, and send the power to the rear wheels, and I'd buy the shit out of that car tomorrow.

Or it could be the worst crap to ever hit the streets that has little driving resemblance to a GTI now.

[atomicalex]

I swear I have replied to this thread three times already. Thank you failing work internet.

I have both, too. 2018 BRZ and 2017 GTI Sport.

Two great cars but seriously apples and llamas.

The GTI is a fantastic all-rounder than carries five in style and with substance. The interior is awesome, especially with the Jacky Plaid seats. The ride is great, it hugs the road well, and it's quite responsive. You can even put a dishwasher in it if needed.

The BRZ is, well, not much of any of that. It has a far narrower purpose statement. It's not particularly heavy on creature comfort, but if you are driving with purpose, it's the place to be. Where the GTI is going to be comfy, the BRZ is going to be tailored to fit. Where the GTI is going to be roomy, the BRZ is going to be... not. It can fit an overnight bag, a briefcase, and your fireproof gear. The tradeoff is that it is a lot more responsive and road compliant than the GTI. It is far stickier and easier to rotate. It's just that much more fun.

I used to track a B5 and sometimes a MkIV. My track instructor told me that I needed more car if I wanted to grow. The BRZ was one of the cars on the upgrade list, along with the MX-5 and the Boxster/Cayman. BRZ was a no-brainer for me, as I wanted a newer car and the ND just was not what I was looking for.

So it boils down to how many people you need to carry around. The GTI is a really great choice if you need to carry more than one guest.

I am dying to get my mitts on a new TypeR to see how it compares to the MkVII GTI.....

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by jamison884

It's orders of magnitude more refined when it comes to comfort, build materials, and technology, has amazing balance and turn-in (virtually no understeer), and the brakes are stronger (the SE uses Golf R brakes if I recall correctly), Then the clutch is smoother, the gear shifts are much smoother and less clunky, it only weighs about 250 pounds more than an FRS, and it's simply faster with a bit more HP and a ton more torque. Then I can also fit four full-sized adults comfortably and have plenty of storage.

To me the BRZ is much much more engaging to operate so not sure if I even agree with the above much.

You can actually make the BRZ a more comfortable ride than a Golf GTI if you know how to mildly modify it and this is exactly what I have done (heavy VW/Ronal 18" vs. lightweight 17" STI/Enkei wheels, Dunlop SP Sport 01 vs Advan Fleva tires, and Eibach Prokit Votex/Sachs setup vs. STI Performance/Bilstein setup).

VW/Audi is known to have a spongy feeling brake pedal due to the way they implement the brake booster with an electric vacuum pump. BRZ has none of that and I can stop at a dime just as well with a much surefooted brake pedal.

Okay a dual mass flywheel and cable shifter will seem smoother but the throw is rather long with the Golf GTI and not as accurate as a lightweight single mass flywheel and short throw shifter using linkages on the BRZ). I had a DSG cuz I didn't like the stick shift variant, that VW clutch pedal travel is ridiculously long for my short legs.

The Golf GTI corners like it's always just about to flip over whereas the BRZ is much more go-kart like with the axis of rotation right at the driver's seat. No way the Golf GTI can corner as fast as a BRZ. In terms of straight line my BRZ have an upgraded clutch and I can accelerate just as fast if I want to, and also not run out of steam above 5000rpm.

I no longer need to haul much things or more than 2 people so moving from the Golf GTI to the BRZ made sense to me. The RWD also taught me a lot in terms of handling.

But hey if you need a nice German hot hatch the Golf GTI is hard to beat. Just not sure about the Das Auto reliability and running cost overtime.



BTW you should check where the side mirrors attach to the doors as it's known to rust inside around there with the Mk7 within a year or so. With the MkV the water only seemp into the center brake light thru the spoiler and corrode the circuitry in less than 7 years.

[Sapphireho]

Another "I think I like oranges better than apples" thread.

[carsebuco]

Based on personal experience, GTI drivers tend to drive like kunts on the street.

That's all I'll say.

[chaoskaze]

Despite what everyone has to say, every person like different attributes of these cars different.

If you like GTI, get it. Especially seeing that you had a terrible experience with your twins.


Just remember don't get the DCT unless you can repair that thing yourself when the time comes.