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12-18-2020, 07:58 PM | #43 |
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The pricing on the next gen Mirai shows that the fuel cell tech is slowly becoming less expensive. Unlike hybrids, the cost reduction could not be attributed to volume at this point.
Environmentally, less battery is better. The only question is whether the fuel cell will be reusable at end of life for the vehicle or not. That would be a big plus if the cell was essentially a removable/reusable appliance. I had read a few years ago that researchers in South Korea had built a fuel cell that was catalyzed with carbon tubules. The cost was expected to be far less than using precious metals. Not sure if this or other revisions have reduced the fuel cell cost. Provided hydrogen continues to prove itself safe to store in a vehicle, fuel cell tech makes a lot of sense when range and refuelling times are important. Tesla has the lead in premium green vehicles, but I see great potential for the Mirai. The metals used in hybrid batteries could become more costly and scarcer over time. Fuel cells, afaik dont lose their power output ability in a few year like batteries. Not knowing the lifespan of a typical fuel cell system, everything else is very compelling and it seems like the infrastructure for hydrogen production could easily be incorporated to many existing refuelling facilities.
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12-18-2020, 08:50 PM | #44 | |||
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Less if you consider that it has a small battery pack that could also be charged directly. You know, that's exactly what I want to be doing with my spare time. Finding a charging station to add a few miles to my range. . Also, hydrogen fill time isn't a huge concern, but I'm sure if there were any incentive someone could invent a faster pump. Supercharging stations are plentiful because Musk threw other people's money at it for the last decade. Tesla is a furnace into which people feed dollar bills. If Hydrogen had that kind of enthusiasm we would probably all be driving hydrogen cars by now. But is a hydrogen fueling station more expensive than 18+ supercharger stations (assuming the same number of plugs as pumps)? To match the capacity of fueling stations you do have, many of which are in places you don't go to spend an hour waiting to move on, you need more than 180,000 charging stations if they all had the same amount of superchargers as pumps at the gas stations. You would need over a million level 2(?) charging stations. Now, do you really need the capacity you actually have, no, but if you really want to compare capacity against fueling stations as a metric, those are the numbers you are looking at. Cost of a supercharger station from wikipedia: Quote:
Cost of a 4-pump hydrogen station from dadhawk's article: Quote:
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The Following User Says Thank You to Spuds For This Useful Post: | Dadhawk (12-18-2020) |
12-19-2020, 12:35 AM | #45 | ||
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Even if someone wanted to use a Supercharger, unless they were on a long road trip, the Supercharger would only be needed to make up the difference. For instance, if someone wanted to fully charge the car then cool, but if they just wanted to add more miles than a night of charging because they were doing a longer drive the next day into the city or to visit a friend in the next town then 5 minutes on a V3 Supercharger could add 75 miles. Add that to a slower home charger, and the example above would have added over a hundred or more miles in the worst case scenario with five minutes of effort. https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesl...harger-tested/ Because of the above, you can't try to make an apples to apples comparison between hydrogen refueling and EV refueling. The behavior and means of charging is completely different. The fact is that if all cars where hydrogen then we would need 10,266 fuel stations converted to hydrogen or new stations built, and we are far away from that. Are they retrofitting any old stations to save cost? That could be an option, but often times it is cheaper to build new then renovate a structure because of building codes. For EVs, most people only occasionally need a supercharger. The problem is surge usage during holidays and other times. Your cost analysis is off too. The price of the EV stations is largely the cost of the land and other logistics. They can be built relatively cheaply if there is careful planning. Read the link for a full cost breakdown of what the EVs cost to build and maintain. I think if you research what a hydrogen fuel station costs to maintain and build then you will see there is a big difference. Level 2 charging stations are super cheap. They can put them up for super cheap. Building a parking structure? Plan ahead and add refueling stations at each port. This is already happening. It dramatically brings down the cost of these installs. Quote:
Besides the problem of finding a hydrogen fuel station near or needing to drive far to get to a fueling station (44 miles for the closest fueling station to me), the other issue is finding fuel at this time. They can build a lot of fuel stations, but they also need to work on making more hydrogen. Being low on fuel is a big problem right now, and they don't even have many hydrogen cars on the road. Check out the stations, and you will see for yourself.
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The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post: | Spuds (12-20-2020) |
12-19-2020, 02:16 AM | #46 | |
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I think fuel cell vehicles are an eventuality once the infrastructure has time to catch up like stations and fuel production, but I think that future is much further away than an EV future, and it probably depends on materials for batteries being scarce, for battery technology to plateau and costs per kWh to plateau higher than is likely. If the cost of batteries continues to fall, the rate of charging continues to increase, the weight of batteries drops, etc. then hydrogen passenger cars might find a small audience. This is especially the case if the performance stays on par with the Mirai: 0-60 in 9.1 seconds! The fuel is a big part of this whole thing. Right now, 95% of hydrogen fuel comes from fossil fuels. We are investing in wind and solar, but I don't know if we are investing in electrolysis because the energy from electrolysis will need to come from wind and solar and other renewable sources to be clean. So, we essentially need to develop electric production probably before we develop green hydrogen production. Then there is the cost of the fuel at the pump. There is a reason Toyota is offering $15,000 in free fuel. This is because most people might have some shock at the pumps. For instance, the Mirai has fuel tanks with a capacity of 32.3 gallon, but hydrogen fuel is sold by the kg, and the capacity is roughly 5 kg, and the average cost of hydrogen in California is $16/kg, so it will cost $80 to fill up the Mirai if it gets maximum miles. Price could be closer to $100, but it is "free" for 3-5 years, so this point is mostly off the table. This is a cool article. https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/new-...nder-the-skin/
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The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post: | Dadhawk (12-19-2020) |
01-19-2021, 12:25 PM | #48 |
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Thanks for posting. The external of the car is pretty bland to me, and the nose is too long, but maybe that's just the angle of the external view.
Sadly, no Mirai for me anyway since I live on the wrong side of the country for that option. As a reviewer, Doug is growing on me, although I still have to just listen and not watch when he does external shots and is doing his impression of a goose trying to take off after getting it's leg trapped.
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01-19-2021, 12:27 PM | #49 |
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doug 1.5x speed is perfect
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01-19-2021, 07:56 PM | #50 | |||||
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Late replies...
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If there's enough range for me to drive to Mammoth Mountain and back without refuelling (currently ~600 miles from my house) then that is the one I'll buy. Quote:
Still, the tiny trunk is very disappointing, as well as the oddly large transmission tunnel. |
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The Following User Says Thank You to mav1178 For This Useful Post: | Spuds (01-19-2021) |
01-19-2021, 08:03 PM | #51 | |
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Imagine if Nintendo or someone named their next ground breaking console "Mirai". I'm not saying they can't, just that the word dates whatever it's attached to immediately
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01-19-2021, 09:47 PM | #52 | |
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But I suppose they could have did what Ford did and name their first bev cuv after their muscle car, which is named after a plane which is named after an even older transportation technology... |
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01-20-2021, 07:07 AM | #53 | |
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The Following User Says Thank You to DarkPira7e For This Useful Post: | Spuds (01-20-2021) |
01-20-2021, 12:38 PM | #54 | |
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GM sucks! They are nailing their own coffin shut and I refuse to ever purchase another one of their vehicles. Need proof? See here: |
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01-20-2021, 01:46 PM | #55 | |
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Let's take one I have experience with the 2003 Honda Accord. Not only are the transmissions known to slip and basically lose 2nd gear (so much so that Honda faced a lawsuit and extended the warranty but most problems didn't occur until AFTER the mileage in the extended warranty). The problem is bad enough the transmission cannot be repaired, it has to be replaced. They also have self-peeling clear coat on them that starts coming off usually about the time the car hits just above the paint warranty. The only remedy is a full repaint.
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01-20-2021, 01:49 PM | #56 |
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IDK why ppl watch him review cars. Seeing in person PLUS watching some review clearly don't know what he's talking about nor bother reading the spec info GIVEN to him.
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