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Old 07-29-2018, 07:39 AM   #3291
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those Grannys got some balls,
If that is the case then it is spelt t, r, a, n, n, i, e, s.

Which is somewhat coincidental given we were discussing gearboxes a few posts ago.
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:55 AM   #3292
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Those wheels look decent at least in color. I really wish Toyota and Honda would stop with these split black/silver spoke wheels.
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Old 07-29-2018, 11:56 AM   #3293
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So if you take an objective view of this manual vs. automatic thing, you get the following:

1. Modern automatics have more gears and shift faster.
2. Modern automatics can be manually controlled through paddle shifters.
3. You can get faster track times with modern automatics.
4. Modern automatics (not in the 86) have manual features such as launch mode.
5. Manuals are much better at giving you a visceral experience because you can make shifting mistakes and thus it is more up to the skill of the driver, i.e., it is more of a challenge.
6. Manuals are much more fun on road trips.
7. Automatics are much better in traffic.
8. Modern automatics can get better gas mileage.

We don't have a modern automatic in our cars, which tilts the decision towards getting a manual and why it should probably be the transmission of choice for our car. Put in a dual clutch 8-10 speed unit and that calculus would change. For corporate profitability reasons in a low volume car, I don't see that happening until either the 86 is discontinued or a next generation is introduced.

In full disclosure, I have an auto and drive mostly around town with monthly rides in the countryside. The paddle shifters do work well and give me control, but it is not as much fun as a manual would be. Ride quality is important when my wife is in the car, and the auto is much more comfortable than the manual with PP both in terms of ride smoothness and smoothness of shifts.

I don't track my cars anymore, but at the track I'd want the one that gives me the best lap times and am much less concerned about "fun". Currently, I think. for this car, without a dual clutch, that's a toss up. However, if the car had a modern auto, I would choose the auto for the track.
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Old 07-29-2018, 12:48 PM   #3294
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Having recently come from a "modern" car, with a modern automatic I can tell you that yes, there are benefits and shortcomings to both.

The Mini I had was equipped with a transmission that had 3 fully different modes. It had paddle shifters that were just really cool, and I enjoyed a lot. The predictive modes were both a convenience and a PITA.

The thing is that with automatics there is a disconnect from the driving experience. It is the same in the aviation world with Fly By Wire systems.

I prefer the MT and direct flight controls any time. These systems just require more of a skill set than it takes to operate automation.

Sometimes old school is the best school, in the very least for those that have the skills, a bit more fun.
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Old 07-29-2018, 12:58 PM   #3295
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Those wheels look decent at least in color. I really wish Toyota and Honda would stop with these split black/silver spoke wheels.
A lot of car makers have been doing these ugly dual tone wheels for many years now it's real annoying. At least these ones don't look too bad.
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:59 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by rvoll View Post
So if you take an objective view of this manual vs. automatic thing, you get the following:

1. Modern automatics have more gears and shift faster.
2. Modern automatics can be manually controlled through paddle shifters.
3. You can get faster track times with modern automatics.
4. Modern automatics (not in the 86) have manual features such as launch mode.
5. Manuals are much better at giving you a visceral experience because you can make shifting mistakes and thus it is more up to the skill of the driver, i.e., it is more of a challenge.
6. Manuals are much more fun on road trips.
7. Automatics are much better in traffic.
8. Modern automatics can get better gas mileage.

We don't have a modern automatic in our cars, which tilts the decision towards getting a manual and why it should probably be the transmission of choice for our car. Put in a dual clutch 8-10 speed unit and that calculus would change. For corporate profitability reasons in a low volume car, I don't see that happening until either the 86 is discontinued or a next generation is introduced.

In full disclosure, I have an auto and drive mostly around town with monthly rides in the countryside. The paddle shifters do work well and give me control, but it is not as much fun as a manual would be. Ride quality is important when my wife is in the car, and the auto is much more comfortable than the manual with PP both in terms of ride smoothness and smoothness of shifts.

I don't track my cars anymore, but at the track I'd want the one that gives me the best lap times and am much less concerned about "fun". Currently, I think. for this car, without a dual clutch, that's a toss up. However, if the car had a modern auto, I would choose the auto for the track.
You also forgot that manuals are lighter (important on this car with the weight up front)
Easier to repair (usually only need a new clutch,TOB,Flywheel)
Less complicated, cheaper to repair
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:46 PM   #3297
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Our cars were supposed to be back to the basics, but as always they had to target different kind of markets and people needs.
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:29 PM   #3298
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
PS. Honda seems to understand... Civic SI and Type R, only available with a 6 speed.
Yeah same with the NSX....oh wait.
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Old 07-29-2018, 05:45 PM   #3299
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Yeah same with the NSX....oh wait.
Is the NSX a profitable car? If it is then it probably wouldn’t be if they did a manual in there too. Track queens ehh.

Porsche GT3 touring edition because of the popularity of the 911R. Apparently being the fastest isn’t the only thing that matters.
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Old 07-29-2018, 05:53 PM   #3300
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Technically they're available on the 3 series and the 2 series, but not on the 6 cylinders since the F30 facelift.

Point is, the ZF 8HP is one of the only options for a RWD auto transmission these days, It's very common. even Dodge uses it.
Maybe I am misunderstanding you but, both the 340i and the m240i (same B58 engine) are available with a manual option.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:03 PM   #3301
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Yeah same with the NSX....oh wait.

cars for the 1%ers aren't manual because nearly all of them are old men who keep their toys in their garage..a $40-60 K Supra shouldn't be following this trend especially when it ain't gonna have anywhere near the power of a GTR or NSX. If they are raving about how the chassis is so stiff and how low the CoG is that should tell you what their focus was. Had the Supra followed the GTR & NSX into the 6 figure game, then it would have been a different story and auto only would be much more accepted..

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Old 07-29-2018, 06:42 PM   #3302
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cars for the 1%ers are manual because nearly all of them are old men who keep their toys in their garage..
Come to the big cities and you will noticed these days the 1% who drive these new expensive sports / supercars are mostly wealthy Chinese kids that can't even drive properly they can't be bothered rowing their own gears (like what's that?).

Cars are just going thru this "digital" phase (think quartz watches and CD players of the past), I'm sure the manual transmission will eventually make a come back as a luxury commodity (they pull this shit everytime something gets obsolete) in a big way like mechanical watches and turntables of today.

The A90 being supposedly the Toyota sports flagship means they have something to prove against the likes of the R35 GTR and such, and needs to chase after numbers being late to the game. The GTR wasn't 6 figures when it first came out. The Toyota brand has to communicate "value" as they have Lexus when it comes to high price.

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Old 07-29-2018, 06:49 PM   #3303
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You also forgot that manuals are lighter (important on this car with the weight up front)
The head engineering dude of the Alpine A110, David Twohig, says that the A110 is lighter with an auto than with manual (which is not being made *sigh*). The manual gearbox is lighter than the auto gearbox but when you also add in the auxiliaries (clutch pedal, master cylinder, the cowling around the stick inside the car etc) the auto car is lighter than the corresponding manual car. That is, the corresponding car if they made it.


This is not testable and the claim was made by a Alpine/Renault spokesman but still, that is/was the claim being made.
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Old 07-29-2018, 07:05 PM   #3304
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these new exotic supercars
I think when one enters the world of superduper cars autos are the only viable option. (Oh no! Captain Snooze has sold out!!) The performance of such cars (and performance is a key selling point even if the car never gets driven above 30 km/h) is significantly hampered by changing gears with a stick. It also allows the software to take more proactive hand in keeping the car on the road.
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Last edited by Captain Snooze; 07-29-2018 at 11:26 PM. Reason: grammar correction
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