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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 02-14-2022, 11:40 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by saltywetman View Post
is there a point though since electric motors don't use gears?
Electric motors have an RPM range where they are most efficient, though it is pretty broad. The powertrain we use at work is just a DC Sepex motor, our competitors have gone AC and tout the higher efficiency. The thing is, the RPM range we all run our motors is pretty much right at over the cross over point. If we were both running 3-400 RPM more they would have a claim. As of now, there claim doesn't justify the additional cost and cooling they have to run. So depending on what motor technology is being used and target use, there could be a reason to do it. Formula E runs multi speed gearboxes, but they usually only use 1st for the start and leave it in 2nd the rest of the time.
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Old 02-14-2022, 12:09 PM   #30
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In the Sur-ron world we play with gearing to achieve torque for wheelies and climbing, top speed, and efficiency at frequently used speeds. Everything is a trade off so a 2 or 3 speed would be great, but would add too much weight.
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Old 02-14-2022, 12:34 PM   #31
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In the real world, engineering decisions are made for real world reasons. Companies that fail to make real world decisions end up dead. It reminds me of 3dfx, who didn't know where to go so they designed their chips for the requests of one customer and ended up unable to ship and behind on performance. NVIDIA ate their lunch.
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Old 02-14-2022, 01:27 PM   #32
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In the real world, engineering decisions are made for real world reasons. Companies that fail to make real world decisions end up dead. It reminds me of 3dfx, who didn't know where to go so they designed their chips for the requests of one customer and ended up unable to ship and behind on performance. NVIDIA ate their lunch.
YEP!
And in this real world only 2% of the ICE cars sold in the USA are MT. To think that they are ever going to put a true MT in an EV just to appease a tiny number of "enthusiasts" that would ever want or use one is plain silly.
As many have said there just simply is no advantage to having a manual transmission in an EV for anybody except those that think driving means rowing through gears.
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Old 02-14-2022, 01:50 PM   #33
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People live in a 0-70mph world. A 2 speed could extend range by 10-15% but the added costs (not complexity) to the consumer makes it a not starter for most makers.. There is not enough economy of scale to make it viable solution atm. Not for the refrigerator mass market cars that manufactures want to sell. Plaid Dad Teslas aren't a great examples to use as they don't/aren't meant to sell in droves. Its already traction limited so why bother with more speeds. But everyone isn't going to drive a $130K EV are they. EVs and hybrids are typically stretch purchases. 30-50mile more range for another $2k or is 300miles fine since you plug it in everyday anyway?

Battery tech is a more strategic solution than transmissions. If the batteries have more power density, you need less of them. Taking weight out improves range and driving dynamics though, 90% of consumer probably don't care about dynamics. Manufactures have basically been given an ultimatum when it comes to EV production. Getting batteries production and tech up is the top priority. Its not that multi-speeds don't have their merit. Manufactures need power sources right now to even compete in the market, so that's the focus.
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Old 02-14-2022, 02:21 PM   #34
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In an way, there are several EVs that do have the EV equivalent of a manual transmission anyway. Tesla has ludicrous mode, GM has WTF and WOW, and to a lesser extend Ford has "Unbridled".

All of these basically take the place of gearing to enhance the driving performance of the car when needed. Except instead of "engaging" your otherwise redundant foot, you let your fingers do the walking to pick the mode.

Also, don't the Taycan and E-Tron GT have 2 gears? If so, there's your options.
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Old 02-14-2022, 02:39 PM   #35
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In an way, there are several EVs that do have the EV equivalent of a manual transmission anyway. Tesla has ludicrous mode, GM has WTF and WOW, and to a lesser extend Ford has "Unbridled".

All of these basically take the place of gearing to enhance the driving performance of the car when needed. Except instead of "engaging" your otherwise redundant foot, you let your fingers do the walking to pick the mode.

Also, don't the Taycan and E-Tron GT have 2 gears? If so, there's your options.
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Old 02-14-2022, 02:48 PM   #36
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People live in a 0-70mph world. A 2 speed could extend range by 10-15% but the added costs (not complexity) to the consumer makes it a not starter for most makers.
Not sure I buy this as an explanation. I believe that range is a HUGE consideration for most pure EV's. Can't believe a relatively minor mechanical change would effect the manufacturing costs so much as to not be worth a look for a free 10-15% of additional range.
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Old 02-14-2022, 02:53 PM   #37
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A transmission might give off EPA range boosts. MIGHT. But the cars are designed for the EPA test. Or the WLTP test. Real world doesn't matter nearly as much.

Also most people need maybe 150 miles of range to cover 99% of driving days. Do you buy your car for the 1% of times? I don't. That's why all my cars have 5 seats and not 7. I'm not going to carry around another 500 lbs of vehicle just so I can take one car instead of two a handful of a times a year.
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Old 02-14-2022, 03:01 PM   #38
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A transmission might give off EPA range boosts. MIGHT. But the cars are designed for the EPA test. Or the WLTP test. Real world doesn't matter nearly as much.

Also most people need maybe 150 miles of range to cover 99% of driving days. Do you buy your car for the 1% of times? I don't. That's why all my cars have 5 seats and not 7. I'm not going to carry around another 500 lbs of vehicle just so I can take one car instead of two a handful of a times a year.
God I wish I could have convinced my wife of this!
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Old 02-14-2022, 03:04 PM   #39
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Not sure I buy this as an explanation. I believe that range is a HUGE consideration for most pure EV's. Can't believe a relatively minor mechanical change would effect the manufacturing costs so much as to not be worth a look for a free 10-15% of additional range.
Like somebody else said earlier there are more effective ways to get more range. They just haven't finished them yet. Adding a whole element to a vehicle is not the best way to gain 10%.
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Old 02-14-2022, 03:21 PM   #40
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Also most people need maybe 150 miles of range to cover 99% of driving days. Do you buy your car for the 1% of times? I don't.
I absolutely agree with you, but where do you decide the decision point is?

How often do you drive with 4, 3 or 2 persons in the car? Is the right 90% solution really motorcycle? (I drive alone in the FRS about 99.8% of the time).

Same with range. Even with my longer than average commute I only need 45 miles of range probably 95% of the time as my commute is 40 miles, I can charge at both home and work, and that allows for a 10% buffer. So, there's my commuting miles covered at 400 miles per week.

Yet, it's also not unusual for me to take a 50 to 800 mile round trip over the weekend once or twice a month. That'll be fun (never mind impossible) with a 45 mile range car. (Although it would have been a perfect scenario for a Volt).

To me, the EV "sweet spot" would be not to have a battery back that could take a car 1,000 miles, but to have the tech to carry a vehicle 300 miles, and charge to 80% in under 15 minutes on a dc charger. To do that, we need the current battery capacity to double in the same foot print, then reduce it size in half, lightning the car and reducing charging time. It's coming though

I was skeptical at first, but I can see that it is very possible we'll have that by 2030 or before. I've said all along I don't care what powers my car, dead dinosaurs, dead dinosaurs turned into electricity, or unicorn tears, as long as i get in it it the morning point it in a direction and go without having to worry about where I'm going to refuel, or having to plan my day around that event.
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Old 02-14-2022, 03:30 PM   #41
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I absolutely agree with you, but where do you decide the decision point is?

How often do you drive with 4, 3 or 2 persons in the car? Is the right 90% solution really motorcycle? (I drive alone in the FRS about 99.8% of the time).

Same with range. Even with my longer than average commute I only need 45 miles of range probably 95% of the time as my commute is 40 miles, I can charge at both home and work, and that allows for a 10% buffer. So, there's my commuting miles covered at 400 miles per week.

Yet, it's also not unusual for me to take a 50 to 800 mile round trip over the weekend once or twice a month. That'll be fun (never mind impossible) with a 45 mile range car. (Although it would have been a perfect scenario for a Volt).

To me, the EV "sweet spot" would be not to have a battery back that could take a car 1,000 miles, but to have the tech to carry a vehicle 300 miles, and charge to 80% in under 15 minutes on a dc charger. To do that, we need the current battery capacity to double in the same foot print, then reduce it size in half, lightning the car and reducing charging time. It's coming though

I was skeptical at first, but I can see that it is very possible we'll have that by 2030 or before. I've said all along I don't care what powers my car, dead dinosaurs, dead dinosaurs turned into electricity, or unicorn tears, as long as i get in it it the morning point it in a direction and go without having to worry about where I'm going to refuel, or having to plan my day around that event.
Motorcycles are death machines. Nothing more efficient than a corpse. As for making a decision, I'm sure you have the skills to weigh pros and cons.

Once or twice a month is 18 times a year is about 5% of the time. Again, weigh the costs. The best way is to have ICE for the long trips and an EV for everything else.

In other words, a 200-mile EV is going to be superior 95% of the time or more. An ICE is going to be superior up to 5% of the time.

Are you going to be a two-car family?

Meanwhile, my neighbor drives a Chevy 2500 diesel that he has never towed with once. Or carried a load a 1500 v6 couldn't have handled easily. He bought a vehicle for .000001% of the time.
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Old 02-14-2022, 04:19 PM   #42
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Motorcycles are death machines. Nothing more efficient than a corpse. As for making a decision, I'm sure you have the skills to weigh pros and cons.
Motorcycles are not death machines. In fact, I've not seen one documented case of a motorcycle sneaking onto the house, grabbing its owner and wheelieing him to death. That said, there is a reason I stopped riding them in Atlanta traffic. Obliviots, I'm surrounded by them...

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In other words, a 200-mile EV is going to be superior 95% of the time or more. An ICE is going to be superior up to 5% of the time. Are you going to be a two-car family?
But a 200-mile EV+ICE is inferior to a 45-mile EV 90% of the time. I give, I'm just going to buy a jet-pack.

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Meanwhile, my neighbor drives a Chevy 2500 diesel that he has never towed with once. Or carried a load a 1500 v6 couldn't have handled easily. He bought a vehicle for .000001% of the time.
Or, he bought it for his 100% case. It was 100% what he wanted and he's never found a need it didn't meet (well except maybe running cost, but who knows maybe he likes the lady at the local fuel stop and wants to have an excuse to see her. Then again, a hooker would be cheaper).
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