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Old 01-06-2023, 12:06 PM   #29
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My car is daily and also time trials at the track. I’ve always run factory arms and links at -2.7 rear camber, zero rear toe,street and track. Winter tires have never seen the track yet wear remarkably evenly. Radials can handle a lot of camber, I think people get worried about having too much when there’s not much if any negatives running that much on the street. So they get aftermarket LCAs and toe links. Which can cause REAL, ACTUAL problems…
People typically get aftermarket control arms to even out the camber, not so much to reduce or add camber. It sounds like your car came with excellent tolerances which most twins do not.

I’ve had perfect vision my whole life, but that’s kinda like me saying “why would you put glass in front of your eye balls, or god forbid contacts that actually touch your eye ball, that could cause some problems”. When in reality some people need it.
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Old 01-06-2023, 01:34 PM   #30
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People typically get aftermarket control arms to even out the camber, not so much to reduce or add camber. It sounds like your car came with excellent tolerances which most twins do not.

I’ve had perfect vision my whole life, but that’s kinda like me saying “why would you put glass in front of your eye balls, or god forbid contacts that actually touch your eye ball, that could cause some problems”. When in reality some people need it.
Thank you. The OEM setup is EXTREMELY limited in its adjustability, which means you very much get to settle for whatever geometry your specific car has (and it varies on each vehicle.) I'm way too OCD about alignment specs being even, and so for me adjustable LCAs were just as much about allowing me to get things even left-to-right as it was about getting a specific target camber at a given ride height.

I appreciate ZDan's thought process. OEM suspension components are almost always going to be tough as nails, and I don't change them out unless I have to. That's why I'm still on OEM toe links even with my aftermarket LCAs. However, I don't quite agree with his persistence that anything other than OEM is simply a bad decision from a durability standpoint. Properly designed and tested aftermarket parts don't just explode left and right when you hit a pothole, and will last just fine as long as they are installed correctly, and properly maintained. I won't argue that OEM LCAs will probably handle more ultimate abuse before failing as compared to, say, my aluminum Verus LCAs, but if you're at that point, you've got a lot of other stuff to worry about, and even the OEM ones will likely need replacing.

Just a few weeks ago I didn't see a GIANT metal bracket sitting on the road while I was changing lanes. It smashed into the pleading edge of my floor pan, but luckily the fiberglass aero tray cushioned the impact, before getting absolutely nailed by my left rear LCA, which sent it skittering across the road. The impact was extremely violent and I actually pulled over on the highway (which itself is not something you do unnecessarily if you don't want to die) because I was genuinely worried I'd find all manner of fluids dripping or half of a bumper missing or something. Nothing. It was only when I got home and jacked the car up that I noticed a giant gouge in the LCA where the impact had occurred... but it's otherwise fine! I don't want people to read ZDan's comments and think that aftermarket parts will collapse if you so much as look at them funny. I've hit some potholes in my car that felt like they should have separated the entire rear subframe.

TL;DR Yes, there are plenty of poorly-designed aftermarket parts I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot-pole, and yes, even good aftermarket parts can suffer from manufacturing defects, installation error, and might even ultimately be slightly less durable than OEM parts, but if you do your research, install them properly, and maintain them correctly, you really shouldn't be needing to worry about them exploding any more than any other part on the car.

Having said all that, I'd definitely be curious to know what caused the failure in OP's situation.
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Old 01-06-2023, 01:59 PM   #31
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FWIW my right rear camber is about 0.2 deg > left rear. Front is more asymmetric, right is 0.5 deg > left at max camber plate adjustment. At CCW tracks I just run max negative or about -3.2 FL and -3.7 FR (rear of course not adjustable). At CW tracks I will sometimes even out the front, sometimes don’t, lap timer can’t really tell the difference…

Street car can stand a lot of camber asymmetry, even something like -1* LR with -2 RR for a street car would not be a problem. Track car, again, I could scarcely tell the difference between front being even vs. one side having 0.5* more. It is important to be in the right ballpark, but +/- a couple/few tenths from there is not a big deal.


I do think aftermarket arms and links are overprescribed in most cases.

Theory as to what caused failure in this case: fatigue in the aluminum housing, which has a quite narrow cross-section. Also the design is not failsafe like oem so when it failed toe control went completely bye bye.

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Old 01-06-2023, 05:57 PM   #32
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At one point I was very OCD about tire pressures (adjusting within 0.5 psi increments) and also about alignment (must match L/R). However, as time went on, I found that they have little impact on lap times as variations in your driving is likely to make a bigger difference. I'm more along the lines of @ZDan now where camber that is less than a few tenths of a degree difference is acceptable in my books.

OE parts are more likely to be manufactured to a higher quality with more considerations made during the design phase. Sure, you can find high quality aftermarket parts but I would consider it be to rare. Even if engineered and manufactured to a high standard, aftermarket parts manufacturers likely have less control over the quality of their suppliers as well.
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Old 01-06-2023, 06:58 PM   #33
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At one point I was very OCD about tire pressures (adjusting within 0.5 psi increments) and also about alignment (must match L/R). However, as time went on, I found that they have little impact on lap times as variations in your driving is likely to make a bigger difference. I'm more along the lines of @ZDan now where camber that is less than a few tenths of a degree difference is acceptable in my books.

OE parts are more likely to be manufactured to a higher quality with more considerations made during the design phase. Sure, you can find high quality aftermarket parts but I would consider it be to rare. Even if engineered and manufactured to a high standard, aftermarket parts manufacturers likely have less control over the quality of their suppliers as well.
Sure a few tenths of a degree won’t make a difference, but suspension installs are resulting in up to a degree of difference. Typically cars are expensive items in which the owner will want alignments specs at least somewhat close.
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Old 01-06-2023, 08:20 PM   #34
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Sure a few tenths of a degree won’t make a difference, but suspension installs are resulting in up to a degree of difference.
? There’s likely to be some asymmetry in the car, but a decent “suspension install” shouldn’t add to that.
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Typically cars are expensive items in which the owner will want alignments specs at least somewhat close.
It doesn’t help that there are always peeps saying RLCAs and toe links are a requirement, when they aren’t. -2.5 degrees rear camber is not a problem for a daily, and rear camber within 0.5 or even a degree isn’t really a problem either. Suspension links/arms with scrawny-ass aluminum housings for ball joints can be, though, particularly for daily/street cars that put some miles on.
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Old 01-06-2023, 09:07 PM   #35
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? There’s likely to be some asymmetry in the car, but a decent “suspension install” shouldn’t add to that.

It doesn’t help that there are always peeps saying RLCAs and toe links are a requirement, when they aren’t. -2.5 degrees rear camber is not a problem for a daily, and rear camber within 0.5 or even a degree isn’t really a problem either. Suspension links/arms with scrawny-ass aluminum housings for ball joints can be, though, particularly for daily/street cars that put some miles on.
It is my understanding that the twin's asymmetry becomes more pronounced when you lower the car, rather than staying the same or becoming more symmetrical. For example if your stock rear camber is -1.1L/-1.5R (both figures are within Subaru/Toyota's tolerance specifications), your camber will become even more askew with lowering.

Sure, but on the other hand I often see you say they are over prescribed which could discourage someone who actually do "need" aftermarket control arms. Like I mentioned your car came with excellent tolerances. Subaru was under no obligation to build your as well as they did, but they did. A good chunk (if not most of us) were not as lucky.

And when I say aftermarket control arms I am typically talking about the SPC/new whiteline style. I am not that big a fan of aluminum suspension parts for the reason that you mentioned, especially with their fully exposed heim joints. These are race parts for professional teams. The fact that OP's toe arms lasted 6 years is just a testament to the quality of Verus and FK parts.
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Old 01-06-2023, 10:11 PM   #36
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It is my understanding that the twin's asymmetry becomes more pronounced when you lower the car, rather than staying the same or becoming more symmetrical. For example if your stock rear camber is -1.1L/-1.5R (both figures are within Subaru/Toyota's tolerance specifications), your camber will become even more askew with lowering.
IMO if it goes from -1.1/-1.5 to -2.0/-3.0 with lowering, that’s still not necessarily a problem.
But anyway in my case I dropped the car 1.5” and rear camber is within 0.2*. Honestly I wouldn’t be worried if I was at -2.5/-3.0 but I’ll admit more than that might give me pause for competitive track work where tenths are important…

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Sure, but on the other hand I often see you say they are over prescribed which could discourage someone who actually do "need" aftermarket control arms.
IMO even a degree split rear camber after lowering like -2/-3 isn’t really a problem for most applications/usages.

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And when I say aftermarket control arms I am typically talking about the SPC/new whiteline style. I am not that big a fan of aluminum suspension parts for the reason that you mentioned, especially with their fully exposed heim joints. These are race parts for professional teams. The fact that OP's toe arms lasted 6 years is just a testament to the quality of Verus and FK parts.
Yeah, a lot of aftermarket adjustable parts are just totally inappropriate for a street car. I will say that often aftermarket parts suppliers will fall back on the “race parts for track cars” line, but when I’ve pressed for mtbf, inspection intervals and methods have nothing to say. These parts are critical structural components, and aftermarket suppliers are not anywhere close to being able to guarantee reliability for street-driven cars.
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Old 01-06-2023, 10:56 PM   #37
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I do agree that all arms with exposed heim joints should be inspected regularly. I would not expect a heim to last through 6 years of regular street driving, especially with that amount of corrosion..

That said, I'd be curious if the type of failure the op experienced would have been found with a regular inspection.
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Old 01-07-2023, 11:20 AM   #38
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IMO even a degree split rear camber after lowering like -2/-3 isn’t really a problem for most applications/usages.
Autocross is definitely not one of those applications where a degree difference can be ignored :P
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Old 01-08-2023, 08:25 AM   #39
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Autocross is definitely not one of those applications where a degree difference can be ignored :P
I wouldn’t have any qualms about going out on the track with -2/-3 split rear camber. For sure I would be looking for any handling balance differences in left- vs. right-handers, and if I felt like it was an issue I’d do something about it for sure. I’d probably start with loosening rear subframe mounts and tryna shift it, see how much that evens things out.

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Old 01-08-2023, 09:13 AM   #40
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Dunno temp spread. I quit using pyrometer years ago. Evidence suggests that 90% of those who do use them at the track don’t really know how to use the info anyway…

I’m on 4.4 kg/mm front springs, 5.3 rear. Eibach front and rear sways set to about 150% stiffer than stock (softer setting front, stiffer rear). Tires are Yok A052, B’stone RE71RS, 245/40-17 (sometimes 235/45, sometimes staggered).


I think you should give yer butt a lot more credence than the pyrometer!
The pyrometer reading is only telling you temperatures, after you’ve pulled off the track. it isn’t telling you directly how much camber to run (or pressures either). Generally a setup optimized for lap times will have the inside running hotter than outside, no one should be aiming for even temp across the tread.

In my experience a quite broad range of rear camber settings can yield very similar lap times. On these cars having enough front camber is a lot more important than whether rear camber is “optimal”. IMO rear camber anywhere from -2 to -3 is gonna work fine. And if you’re front camber limited, reducing rear camber won’t help…
Just for reference: never aimed for even temp, all my changes has been done to achieve a 10 to 15 degrees difference between inner and outer shoulders, which is in my opinion a good balance between tire wear and performance; 25 to 30 degrees would be better performance wise but then tire life would be drastically reduced.

With that in mind, I found -3 to -4 front and -1.8 to -2.2 rear to be the sweet spots with minimal toe used and not too low hot pressures.
Also, I’m one of those with uneven rear camber from stock, almost evened out shifting subframe though.
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Old 01-08-2023, 11:18 AM   #41
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Just for reference: never aimed for even temp, all my changes has been done to achieve a 10 to 15 degrees difference between inner and outer shoulders, which is in my opinion a good balance between tire wear and performance; 25 to 30 degrees would be better performance wise but then tire life would be drastically reduced.
How do you know that 25-30 degree spread would be better for lap times? My position is that “optimal” temp profile across the tread is going to be dependent on car, setup, tires, and what track you’re running. And for most tracks I would bet that optimal profile is different left-side vs. right. It’s gonna be somewhere close to impossible for most of us to actually optimize based on lap times. But imo for these cars and most “normal” road cars the sweet spot for camber is going to be very broad…

Quote:
With that in mind, I found -3 to -4 front and -1.8 to -2.2 rear to be the sweet spots with minimal toe used and not too low hot pressures.
Also, I’m one of those with uneven rear camber from stock, almost evened out shifting subframe though.
Found the same for front camber, lap times and handling balance are pretty consistent within that -3 to -4 range. But I don’t think you are gonna hurt either lap times or tire life running as much as -3 rear camber…

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Old 01-08-2023, 04:20 PM   #42
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That said, I'd be curious if the type of failure the op experienced would have been found with a regular inspection.
I'd be looking for really fine cracks. I think it's possible cracks might've shown up before the part completely let go.

I had a front strut completely fail at 35mph on my way home from a time attack event. It was a blessing that it didn't fail on me at the track since I would reach 140mph before standing on the brakes for turn 1.

You can see from where it failed that there shiny metal (new) and rusty metal (old) so it was likely cracked for some time. Link to image: https://www.instagram.com/p/CID5OzqnznU/
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