GR86 Tire question

[Dake]

Ultimately there were two questions posed by the OP.

The first: Is it safe to use summer tires in the winter? The consensus is it's definitely safer to use all-seasons or better still, dedicated winter tires.

Where the disagreement comes in stems from the second question a little later in the thread where the OP asks:

The reason I ask about the tires is that I was wanting to find out specifically what temperature the stock tires become brittle, so I can gauge whether I need to buy and bring a full set of new wheels/tires to the dealership just to drive it home, or if I can drive carefully (good weather, just a bit cold) and do the swap at home.

I, others, and I believe Michelin suggest the OP will be safe to drive home, unless the drive home is a hundred mile slog through a blizzard or something.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Dake

Ultimately there were two questions posed by the OP.

The first: Is it safe to use summer tires in the winter? The consensus is it's definitely safer to use all-seasons or better still, dedicated winter tires.

Where the disagreement comes in stems from the second question a little later in the thread where the OP asks:



I, others, and I believe Michelin suggest the OP will be safe to drive home, unless the drive home is a hundred mile slog through a blizzard or something.

Is it safe to use summers in winter? No.
Can summers be used in winter? Yes, at your own risk.
Whats the glass transition temperature of summers in cold weather? The hell should i know? Im not driving in winter conditions to find out...im swapping them out beforehand.

It actually just becomes a question of safety and whether or not you want to take the risk.
I took the risk one time in the past (My old car had Michelin Primacy which i drove in like 0C/32F weather with a thin sprinkle of snow but the major roadways were mostly just wet) and it was mostly fine, until the last turn to my destination i slid into a curb. It wasn't fast/hard enough to do any major damage, but i bent a wheel out of whack.
Ironically i was taking my winters to be swapped in that day. After that winter, i bought new wheels and equipped them with High performance all seasons.

Not taking that risk again. One incident is all you need.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by Dake

Ultimately there were two questions posed by the OP.

The first: Is it safe to use summer tires in the winter? The consensus is it's definitely safer to use all-seasons or better still, dedicated winter tires.

As the OP, you're a bit off on that. I did not ask whether it's safe to use summer tires in winter, I firmly believe that it is not safe.

The first question, which was very obliquely implied and ultimately not important if I could get the actual primary question answered is whether the tires were in fact rated as summer tires, since I couldn't find anywhere on the product page on the manufacturer website that clearly stated one way or the other.

Originally Posted by Dake

I, others, and I believe Michelin suggest the OP will be safe to drive home, unless the drive home is a hundred mile slog through a blizzard or something.

The second (primary) question is nothing more or less than what the glass transition temperature of the tire is. Above the 40/50F (depending on who you ask) mark it's safe to run a summer tire and it will perform properly. Below that temp, but above the glass transition temp, you can drive without damaging the tire, but at potentially unsafe loss of traction. Whether you believe that's safe for yourself and other drivers on the road is a question only you can answer, unless you lose control of the car and harm someone else at which point a court of law will probably answer that question for you. Then below the glass transition temperature it is entirely unsafe to drive on the tires since you're getting the least traction possible and the rubber in the tire can no longer flex properly to allow for the weight of the car and cracks will begin to form in the tires.

If I can find the answer to that question the course of action is simple: If the weather is warm enough that driving on the tires will not risk damage to the tires, I drive the car home carefully and park it in the garage until I get proper tires for it if I haven't already. If the weather is cold enough we're risking damage to the tires I have to arrange for a full set of wheels/tires and transport them to the dealership, have the wheels/tires swapped there, and THEN drive home.

[86-75309]

This is the warning that Michelin has for their PS4S tires. It suggests to me that the critical temperature is somewhere between 20F and 40F.

Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by 86-75309

This is the warning that Michelin has for their PS4S tires. It suggests to me that the critical temperature is somewhere between 20F and 40F.

Thanks, can you point me to where you found that? I'd really like to try to find the same/similar warning on the PS4 (no S) just to satisfy my concerns.


My intention is to have a full set of wheels/tires for winter driving (all-seasons rather than strictly winter tires, since when the roads are actually snowy-icy I'll drive my truck for all kinds of "don't care about dents" reasons). Probably BFG Comp2's or something really similar. I want to play on the original tires and, once they're worn out, just move the all-seasons to the original wheels and leave it like that.

Then, if I really want to, I can put some track tires on the spare rims and go nuts.

20F is pretty cold, and we do hit those temps here pretty reliably every winter, but generally not until we're far enough into winter that we've been seeing 50F or lower as the daily high for a while, so definitely long after I'd want to switch to the winter tires anyway. It's also well below the temps we're likely to see when the car gets delivered, so it should be (reasonably) safe to drive it home on the summer tires.

That's important to me because I don't have to sort out the sourcing and purchase of a whole set of wheels/tires before I even get the car. Not critically-important, and I may get them ahead of time anyway, but the key difference is now it's optional. And now I know that if delays push delivery into Jan/Feb, I'm probably going to want to get the winter rubber before delivery.

[86-75309]

The warning is part of the description of the tire on Tire Rack's website. It's present for the PS4S, but not on the PS4. Maybe the PS4 has a compound that's less fragile in frigid weather.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...Pilot+Sport+4S
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...=Pilot+Sport+4

[Spektyr]

Thanks, that's interesting.

I wonder if Michelin's customer support would answer an email asking them that... guess I'll find out.

[obscene_gesture]

My FR-S came with Turanzas. My understanding at the time was that if you lived someplace with cold, snowy winters like I do, you would likely get those over the Michelin summer tires.

I never cared for those tires, so I replaced them early with Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ which is the all-season version because I didn't want to have keep a separate set of winter tires for that car. Definitely better than the Turanzas in terms of grip.

I have Pilot Sport 4S on my daily driver. I like those tires, but I they definitely don't feel quite right in freezing temperatures, and I have separate winters tires on smaller rims for that car.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by obscene_gesture

I have Pilot Sport 4S on my daily driver. I like those tires, but I they definitely don't feel quite right in freezing temperatures, and I have separate winters tires on smaller rims for that car.

Do you feel that smaller wheels work better for winter driving? Or was that simply a question of it being easier to find rims/tires for winter driving at the smaller size?

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

Do you feel that smaller wheels work better for winter driving? Or was that simply a question of it being easier to find rims/tires for winter driving at the smaller size?

Larger tire profile (smaller diameter rims) will give a smoother ride on uneven surfaces (snow). Other than that, there is no real benefit to changing rim size for the winter. Tire width is more important.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Larger tire profile (smaller diameter rims) will give a smoother ride on uneven surfaces (snow). Other than that, there is no real benefit to changing rim size for the winter. Tire width is more important.

I figured that - I learned to drive on an old (even way back then) 1970 LTD with more sidewall per tire than most cars have on all 4 tires combined. Especially on the highway that thing was a fluffy-smooth ride.

I think I'm going to call around to the used tire shops to see if they have any 17" wheels that will fit. I'm not convinced I want two full sets of wheels at even cheap new rims pricing. I can get the tires swapped on the stock wheels a few times for the cost of new wheels, and I'm thinking that once the PS4's are worn out I'll just stick with the all seasons.

Even then, if I put all-seasons on a set of 17" wheels they're not going to fit on the 18" wheels later, so that might not be a better option even if I can get those wheels dirt cheap.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

Thanks, that's interesting.

I wonder if Michelin's customer support would answer an email asking them that... guess I'll find out.

And the answer, btw, is "no, they will not acknowledge that you even sent an email via their webform."

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

I figured that - I learned to drive on an old (even way back then) 1970 LTD with more sidewall per tire than most cars have on all 4 tires combined. Especially on the highway that thing was a fluffy-smooth ride.

I think I'm going to call around to the used tire shops to see if they have any 17" wheels that will fit. I'm not convinced I want two full sets of wheels at even cheap new rims pricing. I can get the tires swapped on the stock wheels a few times for the cost of new wheels, and I'm thinking that once the PS4's are worn out I'll just stick with the all seasons.

Even then, if I put all-seasons on a set of 17" wheels they're not going to fit on the 18" wheels later, so that might not be a better option even if I can get those wheels dirt cheap.

Definitely a personal opinion thing or even a financial opinion. I have been running on good all seasons for a couple years and am now planning to buy a set of new wheels and summer tires next year to have for changing back and forth. I'm only going this route because I am not breaking the bank with the options I am looking at and it will be extremely easy for me to change the wheels out seasonally.

Otherwise, I agree with your thought on it. I don't know how much of the work you're doing yourself, but around my local shops, even from my personal friends it'll cost me $80 to swap tires on wheels (other typical shops will charge around $120 minimum). So after 4 years of swapping back and forth, I'd be looking at about $720-$960 spent. With the additional thought in mind that my wheels don't ever get scraped or damaged in the process (though I've never had this happen yet, I fear it).

It MAY be cheaper than a new set of quality wheels, but not that much cheaper to me. So for me, I prefer just getting new wheels which would bring a new look to my car for the change of seasons and give me the peace of mind of swapping my own wheels around and carefully storing the others. No need to deal with any shops at all until I need another set of tires. The wheels could also always be sold in the future for a good bit as well if taken care of, and I do like to care for mine.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by Dzmitry

Definitely a personal opinion thing or even a financial opinion. I have been running on good all seasons for a couple years and am now planning to buy a set of new wheels and summer tires next year to have for changing back and forth. I'm only going this route because I am not breaking the bank with the options I am looking at and it will be extremely easy for me to change the wheels out seasonally.

Otherwise, I agree with your thought on it. I don't know how much of the work you're doing yourself, but around my local shops, even from my personal friends it'll cost me $80 to swap tires on wheels (other typical shops will charge around $120 minimum). So after 4 years of swapping back and forth, I'd be looking at about $720-$960 spent. With the additional thought in mind that my wheels don't ever get scraped or damaged in the process (though I've never had this happen yet, I fear it).

It MAY be cheaper than a new set of quality wheels, but not that much cheaper to me. So for me, I prefer just getting new wheels which would bring a new look to my car for the change of seasons and give me the peace of mind of swapping my own wheels around and carefully storing the others. No need to deal with any shops at all until I need another set of tires. The wheels could also always be sold in the future for a good bit as well if taken care of, and I do like to care for mine.

Those are good points - I was looking at it from the perspective that I expect not to buy more summer tires once the PS3's wear down. And I can always change my mind and add wheels to whatever tires aren't currently mounted if I decide later that I want easier access to both sets.

Question for you - do you run the TPMS on both sets of wheels or just the factory wheels, and if so how does the car handle that?