Toyota and Subaru Officially Confirm Second Gen 86! (September 27, 2019)

[Dake]

Since the Zupra is no longer a GT car, it'd be interesting if the 86 moved into that slot. It'd move away from its roots in doing that, but they might see that as being an open niche. Make it a baby LC500.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I think Toyota as a company is waaaay smarter than that. They know exactly what Subaru brings to the table. And Mazda. Give them a little more credit. Never in a million years will the 2nd gen 86 be auto only. The Mk5 Supra is auto only for now because I would guess that Toyota is working on a perfect manual to pair it with. And in that segment, with the Cayman as a benchmark, it will have a manual. The auto they used is one of the best (aside from certain dual clutch or PDK) so it’s a good match for the Supra.
I agree they were making boring (and reliable) cars for a while, but their success is the only reason we have any Toyota sports cars at all. So picture the Mk5 Supra, a 2nd gen 86, and possibly a new MR2. That’s a bad ass lineup, and no other large auto company will have anything like that.


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Toyota certainly has a lot of smart people working for them. After all, they're the largest car company in the world, beating out VW. Which is exactly why I'm concerned for the future of Subaru.

I think this 'exchange of shares' is just a slow-motion acquisition. Toyota has a market capitalization of about $200 Billion. Subaru is about $22 Billion. Clearly, Toyota is the 800 lb gorilla. They're 10 times the size of Subaru. There is none of the usual corporate BS about a 'merger of equals' here. It's a whale slowly swallowing a minnow.

A company doesn't need to acquire 100% of another one to exert effective control. Toyota is doing this not out of the kindness of their hearts to Subaru or car enthusiasts, but for one reason alone: to increase their revenue growth. For any company, the larger you get, the harder it becomes to grow revenues at a rate shareholders demand. Toyota revenues now are about $280 Billion annually. To grow at the 10-15%/year shareholders often demand means finding another $30-$45 Billion in sales - each year, and more each subsequent year. (It's a lot easier pleasing shareholders with 10-15% revenue growth when your sales base is smaller, like the $30 Billion/year of Subaru). If Toyota can consolidate Subaru's revenues with their own, it's an instant 10% growth infusion.

I don't know anything about the culture or philosophy of Toyota today other than what I read on line. My professional experiences are in another industry, where acquisitions were common and it was standard practice to just swallow the revenues of the target company into your own and completely decimate the culture. Like GM did to Saab.

Ironically, I interviewed with Toyota (US) back in the 1990's, when I was trying to switch into the car industry. I met with many people there in marketing and product planning. What struck me (and turned me off) was that (at least at that time), everyone I met was proud of not being a car enthusiast. They all specifically pointed out that they were 'business' people and not car nuts, and that their jobs were totally focused on maximizing profitability. All their decisions were based strictly on financial parameters. I didn't get an offer from them, in large part because they were concerned I wouldn't fit in (since I was an unabashed gear head).

I have no idea what the culture or thinking is at Toyota these days, but the company seems to be highly financially driven (which is why they're such a financial success). They don't do sports cars on their own anymore. The Supra is a rebadged and rebodied BMW Z4, and the 86 is a BRZ with different badges. They have said there will never be a manual transmission for the Supra, because there is no business case to justify it (and because BMW won't make one).

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...pra-no-manual/

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...l-transmission

What's attractive to investors is not necessarily the same thing that's appealing to car enthusiasts. I hope Toyota does with Subaru what they did with Mazda, keep engineering and product development separate and focus purely on collaboration projects. But if something turns out to be in their financial best interests, all bets might be off.

[soundman98]

and funny enough, GM released a statement within the last year how they now understand that chasing gains for investors doesn't equal good long term growth for the company...

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by soundman98

and funny enough, GM released a statement within the last year how they now understand that chasing gains for investors doesn't equal good long term growth for the company...

It’s long past time for that. I’ve seen so many companies ruined by giving in to shareholder pressure for short-term results (including a couple of mine). Japanese business culture takes more of a long-term perspective, but in the US, laws codify that a company’s highest priority must be to maximize shareholder value (which to most US hedge funds means, maximize today’s stock price). Toyota can afford to have a long term perspective. I’ll be interesting to see what happens to GM with their new-found attitude.

[chaoskaze]

Found out in the Bestcar article that announcement will be a year and half from now aka 2021 spring. The code name for 2nd gen is "860B"

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I’ll be interesting to see what happens to GM with their new-found attitude.

C8?

But ya accountants are basically tainting everything in today's business. Car, Games, home builders, etc. The list goes on.

There used to be a time where business growth aligns with personal enjoyment/entitlement for most. Not anymore except a few sectors in the cellphone/multimedia/digital world.

Originally Posted by Rampage

I hope the 86 does not become the next new age Eclipse.

Hate to say it but that would make this car instantly double in value.

[mrg666]

You all need to understand that being able to buy a true sports car for 25K instead of a souped up FWD coupe is a unique opportunity. For what it is, I am enjoying my FR-S to the infinity, while some of you are whining here that you want this or that included in 25K price as if you got less than what you paid for. Well, for those torque freaks out there, there is always Mustang and Camaro. I also don't understand those whiners about torque dip, so lazy to use that stick to downshift or pay for that stupid-easy-to-installl FI kit.

There are two true sports cars that enthusiasts on budget can enjoy; Miata and this. I have no idea why Toyota wanted to continue production of this car; maybe Subaru wanted to continue since this car does not make *any* profit for Toyota. They make it just because they can. Just stop whining and appreciate that you will still have a second option. Thank you, Toyota and Subaru! And, YAY!

It will be the same in the next generation. If you are not able to appreciate it for what it is, you will be whining about the next minivan beating you unless you go buy a Corvette or pay to mod this car properly.

[soundman98]

i for one have never had an issue blowing minivan's away.

i've got a theory that cheerio's increase the relative gravity of the device they get stuck to. which is why the dirtier/fuller minivans go even slower.

[Clutch Dog]

Originally Posted by mrg666

There are two true sports cars that enthusiasts on budget can enjoy; Miata and this. I have no idea why Toyota wanted to continue production of this car; maybe Subaru wanted to continue since this car does not make *any* profit for Toyota. They make it just because they can. Just stop whining and appreciate that you will still have a second option. Thank you, Toyota and Subaru! And, YAY!

It will be the same in the next generation. If you are not able to appreciate it for what it is, you will be whining about the next minivan beating you unless you go buy a Corvette or pay to mod this car properly.

I have a somewhat running theory that cars like the FRS and Supra are made with the idea they wont sell numbers wise. but they get customers to come through the front door.

If it has "magnetism" that could become a function of income or worth. Sort of like the LFA and the following and the following F badging since then for Lexus.


Just a theory I have.

On the subaru side of the house I have no idea. they just wanted to make a two door sports coupe and... i dunno why they wanted to.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Clutch Dog

I have a somewhat running theory that cars like the FRS and Supra are made with the idea they wont sell numbers wise. but they get customers to come through the front door.

If it has "magnetism" that could become a function of income or worth. Sort of like the LFA and the following and the following F badging since then for Lexus.


Just a theory I have.

On the subaru side of the house I have no idea. they just wanted to make a two door sports coupe and... i dunno why they wanted to.

Subaru wanted to get their hands on Toyota's direct injection. Toyota wanted to make fun cars again, maybe learn something about that from Subaru (). Could also be exchanging behind the scenes production stuff we don't see. Also, it cost each a whole lot less than developing an experimental car themselves.

Maybe this time it will be a mild hybrid setup so Subaru can learn hybrid-y things. Toyota gets...better AWD I guess (from some other car)? Having a bit of electronic boost to fill in any torque dips might be interesting...

[Clutch Dog]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Subaru wanted to get their hands on Toyota's direct injection. Toyota wanted to make fun cars again, maybe learn something about that from Subaru (). Could also be exchanging behind the scenes production stuff we don't see. Also, it cost each a whole lot less than developing an experimental car themselves.

Maybe this time it will be a mild hybrid setup so Subaru can learn hybrid-y things. Toyota gets...better AWD I guess (from some other car)? Having a bit of electronic boost to fill in any torque dips might be interesting...

I think its exactly this

subaru gets DFI tech
toyota got rights to use their awd tech since it is compact and fairly simple vs your fwd engines with tcase


one thing i thought that was never fully exploited was Honda's Integrated motor assist. say for example we got a 1.8 liter boxer short stroke from Subaru but there was a 50kw motor to tuirn the engine at lower rpms.

we could get immense torque from a smaller engine and have the rpm to really have fun with the horsepower. and it can be aattached with a manual. its like bolt on displacement at the aske of having a battery and extra weight.. which matters less if they mid mount the engine behind the front struts...

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Clutch Dog

I think its exactly this

subaru gets DFI tech
toyota got rights to use their awd tech since it is compact and fairly simple vs your fwd engines with tcase


one thing i thought that was never fully exploited was Honda's Integrated motor assist. say for example we got a 1.8 liter boxer short stroke from Subaru but there was a 50kw motor to tuirn the engine at lower rpms.

we could get immense torque from a smaller engine and have the rpm to really have fun with the horsepower. and it can be aattached with a manual. its like bolt on displacement at the aske of having a battery and extra weight.. which matters less if they mid mount the engine behind the front struts...

The problem with Subaru's AWD is that the entirety of the engine needs to be mounted high and in front of the axel. Works for boxers, a bit tougher for inlines and Vs.

Yeah, that was basically what I was saying about hybrid stuff. Possibly a high-output upgrade mid-cycle if they want to experiment. 86 is low risk-low reward so a good platform for it.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

But ya accountants are basically tainting everything in today's business. Car, Games, home builders, etc. The list goes on.

Accountants don't give a shit how much money you spend or make. Accountants don't care about cuttings costs or maximizing profit. Accountants are primarily concerned with recording it all correctly so that everybody else has the accurate numbers they need to make decisions.

Cost reduction is a management decision. If someone with a job title that includes "accounting" gets involved with strategy or tactics for reducing production cost, that person is no longer performing an accounting function.

[ett808]

My prediction: 86/BRZ not getting AWD. We'll get maybe an NA 2.4 if we are lucky....

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by ett808

My prediction: 86/BRZ not getting AWD. We'll get maybe an NA 2.4 if we are lucky....

Ah, going with the safe bet I see.