2017 Stock Suspension VS RCE Yellows on Stock 13 FRS

[TeutonicShift89]

Hey All,

Got a '13 FRS with stock suspension. Had decided a long time ago that I would do RCE yellows on the stock struts and a LCA and camber bolts whenever the time came to start messing around with the suspension, since the RCE's are matched to the stock struts, and with a mild drop (20mm) I understand that they put the car into its "ideal" height range for the suspension components. I don't know exactly why that is, but when I hear things like that, I can't stop thinking about them and I really want to do them--just like catless headers making the car "breathe better" and lighter wheels, etc.

I drive about 50% spirited driving/track, 50% commuting in the Appalachian mountains. Matching springs to the stock struts was appealing to prevent bouncing on broken pavement around corners as is common in rural areas out here. And the 20mm drop is acceptable even though I do tend to use forest and fire trails occasionally for some "slideways" shenanigans.

Anyways---been hearing good things about how the '17+ models retuned the suspension. I believe that the front springs/shocks were stiffened and the rears were softened while increasing the rear sway bar size. That all sounds good and like it accomplishes similar things to the RCE's, like improving the ability of the shocks to do their work, thereby improving ride and traction. I also like that it does not seem to lower the car.

Now from my current situation, it is pretty easy to still go with the RCE yellows and such. But the shocks will also have to be replaced one day. Koni yellows were going to be the option there--and when it happens I will have spent the same amount of money as just doing the stock suspension parts to begin with.



TLDR: So all that being said, can anyone with any experience with '13+ cars modified with a similar set up as well as 17+ cars speak as to the virtues of one set up over another? Are there any long term differences to consider dynamically, or are they both different paths up the same mountain?

Thanks for the comments.

@CSGmike
@atlbrz

[imnotsureaboutbrz]

I have the sachs dampers on my BRZ but I don't have any seat time in a pre 2017 model sorry. But I'm in for the deets...

[weederr33]

A combinations I'm considering are the bilstein b6's with RCE tarmac springs or the bilstein b6's with my current TRD springs

[OND]

I'll let people with experience comment on the parts, but I'd assume the shocks and rubber suspension mounts might also be a little tired at this point. I'd personally replace them too while the suspension is out of the car.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by OND

I'll let people with experience comment on the parts, but I'd assume the shocks and rubber suspension mounts might also be a little tired at this point. I'd personally replace them too while the suspension is out of the car.

Be mindful of who might try to give experience

[Gforce]

2017 spring rates were reduced by 15% rear and increased 10% front. Rear roll bar went up by 1mm to 15 mm. Sachs dampers were fitted with firmer compression and rebound.

Clearly, the factory engineers thought more of the roll stiffness needed moving towards the front axle and that the rear spring rate was too high. They were right.

I fit 2017 rear springs to my 2013. The improvement is significant. The ride is now so good as to be excellent. I have B6 Bilsteins which will be equivalent to the factory Sachs though probably not identical.

I had already fitted a Whiteline 20 mm front bar and was not interested in increasing the rear axle roll rate as traction is already poor in stock 2013 form and I have a Supercharger making the lack of traction at the rear axle even worse. So I left the rear roll bar at stock size and left the front springs at the original rate. The ratio of front to rear roll rates for my car would be approximately the same as for the 2017 factory setup but the springing is softer all around.

Shortly after I fitted the 2017 rear springs I also fitted MCA traction brackets reducing the anti squat geometry of the rear axle. The ride and rear axle grip improved further. MCA recommends increasing the rear damper rate after fitting their brackets if the car squats too much and given that I have Bilstein B6 tuned for the 2013 stock rear springs this seems to work nicely. If you don't fit the MCA brackets and you have Bilsteins then perhaps they will overdamp the 2017 rear springs a little, though I found the increase in effective damping rate beneficial. Stock rear dampers should work quite well with the softer rear springs from 2017 since they are too soft to begin with.

I am running about 1.5 degrees negative camber at the rear and around zero at the front. I might install crash bolts in the front struts and add a half degree or so negative camber. I have crash bolts in the rear LCA with another half degree of negative camber available which I would add if I went with any negative front camber.

End result is a car that rides well enough for daily driving but handles much better than any stock pre 2017 BRZ. In my opinion every stock BRZ owner should just change out the rear springs for 2017 rate rear springs before making any other changes, including to better tires.

The biggest improvement is the biggest disadvantage. The 2013-2016 BRZ was designed to be easy for unskilled drivers to experience oversteer or even get a bit of a drift going. The 2017 suspension makes it a bit harder to experience these characteristics but rewards the skilled driver. I think that was the point of Subaru finally making these changes five years into the production cycle. Quite a "facelift"

[Gforce]

On the issue of whether to lower or not:

The CG at stock ride height is 18 in above the ground, about the same height as your CG when seated in the driver's seat, ie your CG as designed to walk upright is about the same height as your hips. Lowering the car by 1-2 inches isn't going to change weight transfer forces by much, 5% to maybe 10% change, and even that doesn't affect the handling thecway many people seem to think it does. Incidentally, the wheelbase is about 100 in and halfway within this wheelbase is about where your knees are when seated in the driver's seat. The CG will be a bit forward of that point given the 53/47 dry unloaded weight distribution front and rear axle. It is no surprise that driving one of these cars is so pleasant, the car feels like an extension of your brain, and in a real sense it is. (Incidentally, the CG for the Impreza upon which the BRZ is based is 20 in above ground and ground clearance is 5.7 inches, for comparison. The excellent handling WRX Impreza is that much higher than but still handles just as well as the BRZ. )

Lowering mainly gives you static camber gain especially at the front. Lowering springs are shorter and stiffer rate so reduce camber gain under cornering forces. This is the reason lowering is such a no brainer mod for those looking only for handling improvements. Even the factory offers a set of lowering springs compatible with the stock dampers. However, you end up with less ground clearance, which is less than five inches to start with, and a much firmer ride.

If you drive in snow or prefer a good riding car (for bumpy roads if not for comfort) then lowering is not a no brainer. You can get almost all the benefits of lowering by doing as I have done.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by TeutonicShift89

Hey All,

Got a '13 FRS with stock suspension. Had decided a long time ago that I would do RCE yellows on the stock struts and a LCA and camber bolts whenever the time came to start messing around with the suspension, since the RCE's are matched to the stock struts, and with a mild drop (20mm) I understand that they put the car into its "ideal" height range for the suspension components. I don't know exactly why that is, but when I hear things like that, I can't stop thinking about them and I really want to do them--just like catless headers making the car "breathe better" and lighter wheels, etc.

I drive about 50% spirited driving/track, 50% commuting in the Appalachian mountains. Matching springs to the stock struts was appealing to prevent bouncing on broken pavement around corners as is common in rural areas out here. And the 20mm drop is acceptable even though I do tend to use forest and fire trails occasionally for some "slideways" shenanigans.

Anyways---been hearing good things about how the '17+ models retuned the suspension. I believe that the front springs/shocks were stiffened and the rears were softened while increasing the rear sway bar size. That all sounds good and like it accomplishes similar things to the RCE's, like improving the ability of the shocks to do their work, thereby improving ride and traction. I also like that it does not seem to lower the car.

Now from my current situation, it is pretty easy to still go with the RCE yellows and such. But the shocks will also have to be replaced one day. Koni yellows were going to be the option there--and when it happens I will have spent the same amount of money as just doing the stock suspension parts to begin with.



TLDR: So all that being said, can anyone with any experience with '13+ cars modified with a similar set up as well as 17+ cars speak as to the virtues of one set up over another? Are there any long term differences to consider dynamically, or are they both different paths up the same mountain?

Thanks for the comments.

@CSGmike
@atlbrz

The 2017 dampers are pretty good...they will be a noticeable improvement in ride quality on their own. I haven't checked the classifieds lately, but if you're able to find a set in good condition for cheap I'd throw them on and see what you think. It would be easy to add some RCE Yellows later (which are a good combination with the new 2017 shocks) if you want a little more roll stiffness and sharpness.

I would prefer the Bilstein B6 though, which are also extremely durable. The Koni Yellows are a little firm and not quite my taste (although they would be if I auto-xed often).

I'm shopping for a used and unmodified BRZ partially so I can have a Bilstein B6 + RCE Yellows set-up if that gives you an idea of how much I like that combo. I often drive cars with very expensive and very fancy suspension but that's what I want on my own daily driver.

- Andrew

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by TeutonicShift89

Now from my current situation, it is pretty easy to still go with the RCE yellows and such. But the shocks will also have to be replaced one day. Koni yellows were going to be the option there--and when it happens I will have spent the same amount of money as just doing the stock suspension parts to begin with.

You'll end up paying to replace the shocks eventually no matter which suspension plan you go with, but it's maybe a once every 5-10 year expense unless you break something, so I wouldn't worry too much about replacement costs at this point.

I would go ahead and assume RCE Yellows are a given (they're really nice), and look at shocks. If you can find a low mileage 2017 set for not very much money, go for it. Try to snag the top mounts with them; they're just as much a part of the suspension as the springs are. If they're approaching the cost of a new set of B6's, just spend the extra and get those instead. I would personally set that line at 2/3 the cost of a set of B6's.

I've been on RCE yellows and OEM 2014 shocks for 50K miles, with no issues. I'm waiting patiently for RCE's upcoming Bilstein coilovers, but that's only for wheel fitting purposes. If I don't go that route I'll get B6's when my struts wear out.

[strat61caster]

CSG Mike had a sizable writeup of his impressions, pretty good sell on the later suspension.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112010

If a set of '17 suspension pops up cheap and local then grab 'em, OE suspensions go for $200 or less around here with <10k miles which is a fucking steal imo.
People will look back on those prices in 20 years and feel the same way we do hearing about classic iron worth hundreds of thousands today that was bought and sold and scrapped for beer money 30-40 years ago. People with classic cars long out of production wish for cheap OEM parts, I wish I had a warehouse and I'd stash away half the OE parts people sell for so cheap that will be unobtanium long from now (OE headers, lca's, coilovers, shift knobs) as the aftermarket stuff usually ages worse than the OE and support wanes.

But I digress.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118765

One of the reasons I like Racecomp, they know that there's banging deals out there and their product isn't always the perfect answer but it's there when the time is right.

I disagree that the OE bushings, rubber bits, and dampers may be worn, those things are designed to hold up for a decade+ yeah they're maybe not at peak performance anymore, but unless you've put well over 50k miles on some truly shitty roads I bet you wouldn't notice the difference in ride quality and responsiveness from a fresh car to a 50k mile car.

[jmark]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

The 2017 dampers are pretty good...they will be a noticeable improvement in ride quality on their own. I haven't checked the classifieds lately, but if you're able to find a set in good condition for cheap I'd throw them on and see what you think. It would be easy to add some RCE Yellows later (which are a good combination with the new 2017 shocks) if you want a little more roll stiffness and sharpness.

I would prefer the Bilstein B6 though, which are also extremely durable. The Koni Yellows are a little firm and not quite my taste (although they would be if I auto-xed often).

I'm shopping for a used and unmodified BRZ partially so I can have a Bilstein B6 + RCE Yellows set-up if that gives you an idea of how much I like that combo. I often drive cars with very expensive and very fancy suspension but that's what I want on my own daily driver.

- Andrew

So with a 2017 PP go with the RCE Yellow springs for a slight drop. Then when the OEM PP Sachs shocks wear out replace with the Bilstein B6 shocks.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by jmark

So with a 2017 PP go with the RCE Yellow springs for a slight drop. Then when the OEM PP Sachs shocks wear out replace with the Bilstein B6 shocks.

Both Sachs and Bilstein gas pressure shocks are designed for very long service life. They will be good for over 100,000 miles before you even need to think about replacing them.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by jmark

So with a 2017 PP go with the RCE Yellow springs for a slight drop. Then when the OEM PP Sachs shocks wear out replace with the Bilstein B6 shocks.

I like that plan.

- Andrew

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

People with classic cars long out of production wish for cheap OEM parts, I wish I had a warehouse and I'd stash away half the OE parts people sell for so cheap that will be unobtanium long from now (OE headers, lca's, coilovers, shift knobs) as the aftermarket stuff usually ages worse than the OE and support wanes.

I've thought this same thing myself. We should go into business together. haha